united
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Thanks for all your replies - they are really helpful and much appreciated!
Benny 321 = opinions sought
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photodog
Lord High Commander of Upper Broughton and Gunthor
If you have 45k to spend then you can really open up your choices....
I would absoloutley put a Bavaria 32 on the list... excellent value... get a deep keel and a Fully Battened main and you will have a fun and capable boat with excellent space... far more than the 321... If swmbo compare the two she will go fro the Bavaria...
If you feel comfy then the 34 would also be within reach I suspect, and this is a better boat still... slightly better screwed together and a little bit more space...
The Bene 311 is a really nice little boat, but not much space, especially in the forecabin... quick to accelerate and fun... but the Bav's above are much better on space, and have IMO simpler electrical systems...
A Jeuneaue SO 32 might be in reach as well.. good nice boat.. though probablyu not as seaworthy as the Bavaria 32 or 34
A slightly earlier Bavaria 31 will also be well within reach... but they are a bit smaller interior wise than the 32, and a bit darker... on the plus side they are better balanced, and easier to sail short handed with the rather weird mainsheet arrangment... though I think in honesty they would be a bit packed with 4 on board... and take no notice of the vomit beige upholstery... you quickly get used to it!!
You should also be able to get into a Dufour 32 classic, which is a lovely bright well screwed together boat with good space.. much better imo than the Bene..
If you are a decent DIY type then the options really open up...
in particular I would say this;
HR 312
or for a bit less the HR29 is a fabulous little boat as well..
If I was making up a list I would say;
HR312
Bavaria 34
Dufour 32 classic
Bavaria 32
Bene 311
Bavaria 31
I would absoloutley put a Bavaria 32 on the list... excellent value... get a deep keel and a Fully Battened main and you will have a fun and capable boat with excellent space... far more than the 321... If swmbo compare the two she will go fro the Bavaria...
If you feel comfy then the 34 would also be within reach I suspect, and this is a better boat still... slightly better screwed together and a little bit more space...
The Bene 311 is a really nice little boat, but not much space, especially in the forecabin... quick to accelerate and fun... but the Bav's above are much better on space, and have IMO simpler electrical systems...
A Jeuneaue SO 32 might be in reach as well.. good nice boat.. though probablyu not as seaworthy as the Bavaria 32 or 34
A slightly earlier Bavaria 31 will also be well within reach... but they are a bit smaller interior wise than the 32, and a bit darker... on the plus side they are better balanced, and easier to sail short handed with the rather weird mainsheet arrangment... though I think in honesty they would be a bit packed with 4 on board... and take no notice of the vomit beige upholstery... you quickly get used to it!!
You should also be able to get into a Dufour 32 classic, which is a lovely bright well screwed together boat with good space.. much better imo than the Bene..
If you are a decent DIY type then the options really open up...
in particular I would say this;
HR 312
or for a bit less the HR29 is a fabulous little boat as well..
If I was making up a list I would say;
HR312
Bavaria 34
Dufour 32 classic
Bavaria 32
Bene 311
Bavaria 31
Tranona
Well-Known Member
As the boat heels (which it may do readily because of the lower ballast ratio) the waterline becomes assymetrical. The bow digs in, the stern lifts and eventually (on some quite early on) the rudder loses grip and the boat rounds up.
Therefore the boat should be kept as flat as possible, which often means reefing early and losing power. On the other hand, the wide, flat stern sections mean that they are usually fast off wind, and of course the trade off is a large cockpit and big aft cabin for a given waterline length. The 321 is in some ways an extreme example as it has such a wide beam carried well aft in relation to its waterline length.
The comparable Bavarias I referred to have less maximum beam and narrower waterlines at the stern. Although they still have similar tendencies, they are arguably less noticeable in normal use.
Therefore the boat should be kept as flat as possible, which often means reefing early and losing power. On the other hand, the wide, flat stern sections mean that they are usually fast off wind, and of course the trade off is a large cockpit and big aft cabin for a given waterline length. The 321 is in some ways an extreme example as it has such a wide beam carried well aft in relation to its waterline length.
The comparable Bavarias I referred to have less maximum beam and narrower waterlines at the stern. Although they still have similar tendencies, they are arguably less noticeable in normal use.
Phoenix of Hamble
Well-Known Member
But what about form stability?
It would be interesting to see an engineering study of the combination of ballast and form stability and its effect on heel and waterline length/profile...
I'm not convinced that its slower... but I agree, an early reef keeps the boat flatter... but not IMHO slower than a boat that can hang on, and sail more heeled....
I think its just a different way of sailing....
It would be interesting to see an engineering study of the combination of ballast and form stability and its effect on heel and waterline length/profile...
I'm not convinced that its slower... but I agree, an early reef keeps the boat flatter... but not IMHO slower than a boat that can hang on, and sail more heeled....
I think its just a different way of sailing....
Andy_H
Well-Known Member
I'm a bit biased because the Bav 32 in the YM article used to be my boat. She is still listed with Ancasta for £45k and has loads of kit (cruising chute, C80 plotter, radar, full instrumets, autopilot, heating, fridge etc)and the No.3 jib makes her a lot easier to handle in a breeze with little affect on performance in lighter winds. If you're looking around that price she is definately worth a look.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
What about it? On light displacement low ballast ratio boats, resistance to heeling does indeed rely on form stability - that is the hard bilge and bouyancy of the immersed hull. Problem arises when heeling uses all this up and the immersed waterline is distorted, and the rudder comes out of the water as the stern lifts. Compared with a heavily ballasted boat with slack bilges which stiffens up as it heels, although may be intially tender until the ballast asserts itself.
Yes, it is a different way of sailing, but often advocates of the more traditional hull forms are reluctant to accept this and criticise such boats because they do not behave in the same way!
Empirical evidence and more importantly sales figures suggest that modern hull forms meet many peoples' requirements! For evidence look at the hull form of the latest HR 31 - not a lot different from a Bavaria!
Yes, it is a different way of sailing, but often advocates of the more traditional hull forms are reluctant to accept this and criticise such boats because they do not behave in the same way!
Empirical evidence and more importantly sales figures suggest that modern hull forms meet many peoples' requirements! For evidence look at the hull form of the latest HR 31 - not a lot different from a Bavaria!
Phoenix of Hamble
Well-Known Member
Yup... I understand form stability.... only ballast causing a boat to stiffen up isn't restricted to a traditional hull form.... physics apply just the same.... but obviously with less ballast on a newer design causing less righting moment... (I appreciate that I'm parking the discussion about hull profile and effect on lift and turning moment around the keel)
I wondered merely about the relative effects of form stability vs ballast... eg at what points does one have a greater effect than the other.... you make the point yourself in stating that a newer design might be stiffer to start with, and an older design stiffer at greater angles of heel... we all know this impirically, but it would be interesting to see some proper analysis of which factor is having the greater effect to what angles.... with a view to understand how much stiffer a new design is at lower angles of heel, ie reefed accordingly, vs how much stiffer an older design is once form stability is no longer the dominant effect....
No real reason other than pure curiosity, and also I guess a little interest in how best to enjoy my own boat!
I wondered merely about the relative effects of form stability vs ballast... eg at what points does one have a greater effect than the other.... you make the point yourself in stating that a newer design might be stiffer to start with, and an older design stiffer at greater angles of heel... we all know this impirically, but it would be interesting to see some proper analysis of which factor is having the greater effect to what angles.... with a view to understand how much stiffer a new design is at lower angles of heel, ie reefed accordingly, vs how much stiffer an older design is once form stability is no longer the dominant effect....
No real reason other than pure curiosity, and also I guess a little interest in how best to enjoy my own boat!
baffled9
Well-Known Member
There is no such thing as the perfect yacht and there are as many opinions as there are yachts. In favour of the Beneteau is an established reputation and a good re-sale market. You doubtless want o buy something that will hold its value and be re-sellable if you want to trade up or (hope not) get out.
One thing to note is that not all Beneteau't get Category A
rating - might not matter to you?
Trust your own judgement on this - if you like the look of it and it suits your needs - and, most importantly, the family like it too then just do it! Don't delay - its not a rehearsal.
One thing to note is that not all Beneteau't get Category A
rating - might not matter to you?
Trust your own judgement on this - if you like the look of it and it suits your needs - and, most importantly, the family like it too then just do it! Don't delay - its not a rehearsal.
Judders
Well-Known Member
That is a very good point about Bennys. There is always a market for a well known marque. That is why mid eighties Bennis now fetch more than mid-eighties Feelings despite being nothing like as good boats.
Its the same with Westerly Centaurs.
Its the same with Westerly Centaurs.
[ QUOTE ]
That is why mid eighties Bennis now fetch more than mid-eighties Feelings despite being nothing like as good boats.
[/ QUOTE ]
Just slap some white gloss paint over those flags on the waterline, you'll probably add £5k to your boat overnight /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
That is why mid eighties Bennis now fetch more than mid-eighties Feelings despite being nothing like as good boats.
[/ QUOTE ]
Just slap some white gloss paint over those flags on the waterline, you'll probably add £5k to your boat overnight /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Judders
Well-Known Member
Actually Feeling Rough never had them, although I've often thought of adding them. Most Feelings are pretty distinctively such, but mine isn't really. She really is an anomynous AWB to the untrained eye!
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Righting moment from ballast depends not only on the amount but on the position. The deeper it is the greater the effect. My shallow draft keel has a big bulb on the bottom compared with the deep keel version. Has the same stability curves - so I was told by the builder but have not seen the figures, but less efficient as a foil.
Andrew Simpson ran a series of articles on this subject in PBO, and if you are really brave you can read Tony Marchaj (spelling probably not quite right) book on stability.
Andrew Simpson ran a series of articles on this subject in PBO, and if you are really brave you can read Tony Marchaj (spelling probably not quite right) book on stability.
Phoenix of Hamble
Well-Known Member
I remember the Simpson articles.... I thought them quite interesting at the time...
I too have a large bulb, on a 1.9m draft... so well endowed as it were..... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Its basic physics/maths really isn't it... turning moments.... I was perhaps more interested in the relative effects of form stability vs ballast.... I've seen the Marchaj [sic] book, and may well at some point immerse myself in it.... i'm still recovering at present from absorbing Bethwaites, 'High Performance Sailing' in the last 2 years... an equally challenging read!
I too have a large bulb, on a 1.9m draft... so well endowed as it were..... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Its basic physics/maths really isn't it... turning moments.... I was perhaps more interested in the relative effects of form stability vs ballast.... I've seen the Marchaj [sic] book, and may well at some point immerse myself in it.... i'm still recovering at present from absorbing Bethwaites, 'High Performance Sailing' in the last 2 years... an equally challenging read!
Sailfree
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
A Jeuneaue SO 32 might be in reach as well.. good nice boat.. though probablyu not as seaworthy as the Bavaria 32 or 34
...
[/ QUOTE ]
Why do you think a Jeanneau 32 is not as seaworthy.
WRT Dufours I have had a Classic 36 & 38 both on the charter market. One is now 12 yrs old the other 8 yrs and both are still going well , regularly chartered on the south Coast and have stood up to the Charter Market well except for the Volvo bits. The 38 now has a Yanmar Saildrive and it has transformed the boat.
A Jeuneaue SO 32 might be in reach as well.. good nice boat.. though probablyu not as seaworthy as the Bavaria 32 or 34
...
[/ QUOTE ]
Why do you think a Jeanneau 32 is not as seaworthy.
WRT Dufours I have had a Classic 36 & 38 both on the charter market. One is now 12 yrs old the other 8 yrs and both are still going well , regularly chartered on the south Coast and have stood up to the Charter Market well except for the Volvo bits. The 38 now has a Yanmar Saildrive and it has transformed the boat.
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