beneteau/ jeanneau

[Birdseye]

having (i hope) just sold my boat I am now thinking of what to buy, and my mind turns toward one of the above - I would like just one new boat in my sailing life and i cannot afford the likes of HR new!

you see a lot of comment and inuendo on these forums but i'm not sure how much of it is based on real knowledge, and how much is prejudice from the old "nothing good since 1950/give me a long keel/must be heavy displacement" chaps.

so for family sailing, no rufty-tufty stuff, how do the modern french boats really stack up. how solid is their construction? and what about depreciation?



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[jimi]

We've got a Beneteau 331, this is our 3rd season and logged nearly 5000 Nm so far and are very happy with her. No problems, sails well, I do a lot of winter sailing and have no complaints. Thoroughly recommend a Benny .. (apart from the standard sails which do'nt last long!)

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[tcm]

People sail on around the world onnem. More usually they sail wherver they want, with decent space, usually without any major problems associated with build. There are better sailing boats, like there are sweeter violins, better snooker cues, crisper hifi speakers and bicycles light as a feather. But this ain't to say that the more mass-produced stuff is no good. Lots of people seem to back off before the boat does, and a bit of broaching at 25knot+ winds with a lot of sail up isn't a reason to throw it in the bin.

From the magazines, you lose the VAT and mebbe a bit more in year one, and 10% a year thereafter. But the prices go up gently so after 10+ years you sort-of get what you paid, excpet you lost all lthe interest on actually keeping the money.

Best make sure you get decent deal, and buy the right one so you don't want to sell for five years at least. This often means one that is a bit scarily big. The Euro is against you new, so a just-second hand one might be a good deal this year. But there is nothing quite like a spanking new new thing, boat or anything else.

all imho.

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[Sybarite]

Here's what Robin said about his Sun Legende 41 in response to jibes about French quality :

Depends on how you define a classic:-

No she is not built in wood
No she is not ultra heavy
No she doesn't leak, hull or deck or windows or vents
No she doesn't have a long keel
No she is not narrow with a railway carriage layout
No she doesn't have lots of brass & varnish
No she is not dark down below
No she doesn't smell musty
No she doesn't need a block & tackle on the tiller


Yes she is laid up in GRP reinforced with Kevlar
Yes she came from a designer with pedigree (cruising and racing)
Yes she has a planned production line systems layout, wiring, plumbing all documented/accessible (not done as you go) that works
Yes she has a proper 'traditional' layout inc proper sea berths, but very comfy ones
Yes she has a full size chart table
Yes she has a proper galley, usable at sea
Yes we have a large fridge and can run it all the time
Yes she has plenty of ventilation for hot climes
Yes she can have a cutter rig (detachable, with proper runners) non std though
Yes she can go upwind in a full gale under sail
Yes we have roller genoa cars, rigid kicker, roller traveller cars
Yes she can motor into wind/sea (44HP 4 cyl Yanmar, Brunton prop)
Yes we can go astern under power and turn either way
Yes she will steer herself under sail
Yes the (very large 'poser' wheel) is as light as a feather
Yes the cockpit is very comfy at all angles of heel (and in harbour)
Yes she is very fast, try 7kts at 28 degs apparent, 8.5/9kts free wind
Yes we can do all reefing main (slab) and genoa from cockpit
Yes we have proper BIG self tailing winches

Go for it.

John

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[david_e]

I bought new Beneteau First late last year and love it, sails beautifully. However, on a similar theme, Gib'Sea are doing a special offer on their range with a 33, fully loaded, at £51k plus delivery & commissioning, looks like things are a little slow, you could have one in your berth for summer. The ad was in ST last month.

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[Robin]

She was however built in 1988 and is now coming up 15 years old! We chose to buy secondhand in the end though did think very seriously about a new Jeanneau Sun Oddysey 40.

We looked secondhand at 38 to 41 footers up to £100,000 (the S0 40 was about that new at the time, though still incomplete inventory for us). We thought maybe something of 'quality' secondhand would be better, so looked at Rival 41, Halberg Rasseys, Westerly Oceanranger 38s, Westerly Oceanlord 41s, Moody 376s, Moody41s etc. At the time we had owned a Westerly 33 Ketch for 14 years and had and still have nothing but praise for her, something similar but bigger would be ideal. In general terms though we were disappointed with the condition of the boats we inspected (and we saw lots), even HRs at £100,000 'ish. Then we went on board a Jeanneau Sun Fizz from around 1986 bought by some friends and this was in much better condition than most of the 'quality' boats we had seen that were younger. It was largely this that made us decide to include French boats, or rather not to exclude them.

We had actually despaired of finding our perfect boat, we had been looking for 18 months, and after another lovely summer cruise on our W33 decided not to sell her. Within 7 days of our return we heard of a Sun Legende for sale and since this was the replacement for the Sun Fizz, different design entirely but similar layout, thought she was worth a look. We arrived about 11.30 and first glance was very impressed, by mid afternoon we had re-visited 3 times and bought her by late afternoon, subject to survey. Two years on and no regrets!

Our experience therefore is with an older French boat but as an indication of how they last she is pretty good, as good as any of the 'quality' boats we saw and better than most.


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[Guest]

looked at all sorts, travelled hundreds of miles from wales to the south coast, looked at a lot of dogs, got fed up of loking at droopy headliners and smelly bilges. finally beneteau 351 on the hamble, 1995, like new, cost 77k in 95 paid 53k last year, expect her to stay at that level now for a while.
nice shiny plastic headliners that dont droop, nice dry clean bilges that dont smell, steers backwards any way you twitch the wheel, points close to the wind, roomy, three double beds + the saloon, deep fridge that realy cools the beer, etc etc.
bit like when honda brought their first bikes in to the country and us old bsa and triumph hands called em jap crap, they werent!! and the french are doing/have done the same.
stu

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[Peppermint]

From experience I'd rate Beneteau slightly higher up my list than Jeanneau. Both do exactly what they say on the tin but Beneteau seem to balance the quality, performance, accomodation, price thing pretty well. The new Gibsea's offer very good value and comforts but I wasn't that impressed with the sailing performance of the 37 we had for a week on the Clyde last year.

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[Neil_M]

Not a Ben/Jen admittedly, but I have a 2 year old Dufour which I rate highly - build quality & finish are good, accommodation comfortable, cockpit secure, handling lively & responsive (but at the price of some directional stability) and she's reasonably stiff in a blow. I wouldn't entertain a long passage in very rough seas given the hull shape but the compromise works for me & most weekend/occassional longer distance sailors. Having bought her second hand under 40k I'm unlikely to see serious depreciation & with the pound lower vs. the Euro higher new import prices may keep the 2nd hand market firm. Excellent value as far as I'm concerned.

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[Jeremy_W]

Average White Boat

I've raced regularly on Jeanneau Fantasia, Benny Oceanis 350 and First 337. I've delivered - in sometimes lousy weather - Rival 34, Contessa 26 and Seacracker 33. The real factor is beam, particularly aft, rather than displacement or keel configuration (try sailing a Pacestter 28 if you doubt this - narrow, but light with an extreme fin keel). If you want double aft cabins/ aft stateroom (or plan to play 5-a-side football in the saloon) then the cost will be some poor handling characteristics particularly in high winds. Wraparound galleys and narrow berths work best at sea. Linear galleys and wide berths are favourite if you are in a marina most nights.

Does this matter to you, your family and the sailing you wish to do? Nobody but you can decide that! Except in very sheltered waters, I far prefer the handing characteristics under sail of narrower/ heavier yachts, but the problems of making, say, a Rustler 36 go backwards into a tight marina berth are legendary.

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[Birdseye]

Re: Average White Boat

thanks for the comment. i guess that the skipper and i would both prefer the room of a more modern design and accept some loss of performance - neither of us want to do distance any longer, and poor weather is avoided like the plague.

my concern was more the standard of build. you get a lot of implied derogatory comment about "benbavjans" on this forum, but my experience has always been that anything mass produced in a factory is of better and more consistent quality than anything made in penny numbers. interestingly, the last surveyor i used made exactly this point about the quality of a famous swedish brand - not the finish but the basic structure which he regarded as fairly average. his advice was to go for a mass produced boat like moody then were.

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[StugeronSteve]

Bought an Oceanis 331 new last year, chuffed to bits with her, goes well, seems to be put together well (visited the works to see her on the production line and was very impressed with the attitude and skill of the people building the boats) and above all feels safe. Yeah we've had a few little niggles but I'd bet you would encounter similar stuff on anything you might buy. Beneteau seem to be able to produce boats that balance the conflicting demands of comfort and space in port, with performance and sailing fun. If you're not bound for the southern ocean but want a boat that swmbo will feel comfortable on, that the family can feel safe on, and will still deliver the goods in a blow, have a serious look.

Happy sailing. Steve.

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[billmacfarlane]

HR and their likes aren't necessarily the holy grail of yachting. For what they're designed to do, there's nothing wrong with French production as long as you accept their limitations. As with any boat, including HR's there are limitations-it all depends on what you want. If a French production cruiser suits you, then don't be put of by the prophets of doom that inhabit these web pages and say that the boat will fall apart at the first sniff of a wind-funnily enough they won't. I had one for 12 years, A Jeanneau and it suited me down to the ground and I sold it on at a good price after an very good survey. Do all French boats look alike? Probably, but HR and their like look similar as well. You pays your money and takes your choice.

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[Twister_Ken]

Prophet of doom

Whenever I've sailed a Benny or a Jenny in rotten weather, the boats have a) had niggling problems and b) required very active crewing and helming. All right for an hour or two but wearing after a bit. Plus they absolutely shake, rattle and roll going upwind in a real breeze and are not a comfortable ride.


The models I"ve experienced this in are the BO 311, the SO 36.2, the BO 411, and the SO 42, mid/late 90's models. I'm told some of the earlier models were more sea kindly, and some of the later designs may also be better.


My 2¢ worth


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[Robin]

From a build quality point of view there are consistencies of build from production line building of the Beneteau Jeanneau volume producers, something I can now appreciate albeit with an older Jeanneau model from 1988 after 14 years with a much loved Westerly 33. The savings come from volume purchasing of components plus reduced labour costs from more efficient production methods. Interior woodwork can be computer planned and panels laser cut to very precise dimensions, less waste more consistency but OK it will not be to master cabinetmaker standards as perhaps from the likes of HR, but do you want to sail or admire an antique piece of furniture?

Some of the negative comments are about sailing performance and this comes down to design. Modern designs of all kinds follow trends from the racing circuits that are not exclusive to Ben/Jens, even the likes of HR have gone for shorter keels, extended waterlines with swim platforms etc. Do your homework on the various models and balance YOUR requirements of interior layouts versus performance and chose what suits YOUR circumstances. Good designers can produce sweet sailers without having to resort to the long keels, narrow beams low freeboard of old, bad designers might find it easier to use the 'old' formulas but there were bad boats built in the good old days too. The big charter companies use these boats and it is not just because of the lower prices, customers will not come back if the boats were hard to handle or unsafe or indeed if they lack performance. But as I say, do your homework on the various models, check the test reports and if possible with owners and take a proper test sail in appropriate conditions.


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[Twister_Ken]

>The big charter companies use these boats and it is not just because of the lower prices, customers will not come back if the boats were hard to handle or unsafe or indeed if they lack performance. <

We haven't been back to Sunsail since the interior of a Sun Odyssey 42 demolished itself in a 2 hour beat to w/ward in a solid F5 gusting F6. The slamming almost demolished us too, and had my daughter reduced to a quivering wreck.

I wasn't amused either when the CQR-alike anchor broke (leaving the flukes on the bottom of the harbour and the shank attached to the chain). Not that I blame BenJen for that, unless it was their standard fit anchor.

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[Robin]

Is there some exaggeration here? 'The interior of a SO42 demolished itself....' I would suggest this would merit investigation by the MAIB people at least, plus a full refund and free charter from [ah em!]. What exactly happened? This is NOT normal or there would be a worldwide riot of BenJen owners, we are talking of 1000's boats built per year here.

By the by, I do not know the design features of the SO42, maybe it is flatter up front as many modern boats are (ours actually isn't for the most part and doesn't slam). What you will find that you certainly wouldn't be used to in a Twister is that the upwind speed and wind angle combine to make a 'solid F5 gusting F6' into a good F7 maybe more over the deck and you are going much more directly into the waves. If you slowed down say to Twister speed and headed say another 10 degs off the wind (like going upwind on the Twister) then it might be different?

I am not a fan of flat forefoots and definely dislike upwind slamming. However that is a feature common to many modern boats, it stems from the design and not the builder or build quality. Some Westerlys slam upwind, some Moodys slam and maybe even some HRs and many many others.

Look, don't get me wrong, I love Twisters, Hustlers, Contessas etc etc, lovely to look at and lovely to sail. I do not think the build quality though was necessarily better, heavier maybe but better? I can cite instances of Twister wooden coachroof variety coachroof to hull joins leaking, Contessas that had to be reinforced to stop excessive flexing in the forward sections, Westerlies that needed additional keel reinforcement, Moodies with cracked skegs and now we have Sadler Starlights as built by Bowman, (the epitomy of so called build quality!) with very serious hull problems and also now defunct so owners are left to sort it out alone. Then there was the Malo with a stem fitting that fell apart on the mooring and allowed the chain strop to demolish part of the deck.



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[Twister_Ken]

Locker doors came open, depositing contents on cabin sole. Forward heads door came adrift and wedged itself in the fore cabin. Deckhead lightfittings dangling from wires, bulbs (some broken) on sole. Berth cushions and backrests in heap on sole, along with plywood lids from under berth lockers.

I've sailed in plenty of 'apparent F7s' and this wasn't one

Could I have slowed the boat and sailed freer? Yes, although we were reefed for the conditions (easy to do when everything rolls up). But that would have doubled the journey time and meant finding my way into an unlit anchorage at night. I was steering very actively to try and avoid the worst crashes, but in an irregular Adraitic sea, that's not always possible. Weren't exactly pointing high anyway. Point that boat in a seaway and she slows right down and falls off to leeward every time she hits a wave.

Should I have been in that situation? No choice. The port where we'd planned to spend the night was chock full and we were turned away. Consequently the two alternative sheltered anchorages in the vicinty were also packed. There was nowhere nearby to get to on a reach or a run. The next island, 10 miles upwind was the best bet. And it was only blowing F5, not exactly survival conditions.



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[david_e]

Have you sailed a ben/jen/bav in similar conditions where it didn't demolish itself?

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[Twister_Ken]

Not a Bav (only once aboard a Bav, Nicho's for a very pleasant delivery sail in an F3, all of 10 miles).

Have punted a 31.7 around the Solent on a breezy day. She behaved like a good racing boat should - a bit twitchy but she flew along very nicely. Ditto a First 260.

Took an SO 36.2 upwind in a real blow in Greece and she stayed together except that one of the sliders under the boom that a reef line was made off on pulled out of the track, which got a little exciting for a while. Found it hard to get a 311 to go properly to windward in blow - loads of leeway. And was pleased with a 411 which did everything right except point high (and which could be manoueverd to within an inch under power ahead and astern, which was a big change from my usual form of transport)!



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