Beneteau First vs Oceanis - what are the differences?

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cmedsailor

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I would like to know what the differences are, in general, between “First” and “Oceanis” series that Beneteau has. The “Oceanis” are supposed to be more for cruising whereas “First” are more oriented towards racing.
But what make them different? Different built quality, different construction method (comparing same year’s models), different design, different equipment?
Any ideas?
Thanks

PS: To make it even more interesting, some Oceanis models have borrowed their hulls from Firsts models!! So, what does that means now?
 
Same hull, First model usually has a deeper keel, Harken winches (Lewmar for the Oceanis). Oceanis are cheaper as a base model, but Oceanis owners usually order more creature comforts, so they average out.
 
I have own three First series and one Oceanis. I can tell you that basically the difference is in the rig and the appendixes. It is true that the hulls of some first are unique and not shared with the Oceanis range, but in generall they are shared, so what Beneteau does is to change the design of the keel and rudder and the standing rigging. This is, they install taller masts with a more flexible profile, more canvas obviulsly, what means more power when sailing, and the design of the deck is much better design, orientated to racing and with much more deck hardware, what allows us to tune the boat much better.

As for the interior, they are practically the same, though some first models allow you to disamble some of the furniture out to light the boat when racing.

Quality construction is exactly the same.

I love the First range.
 
The choice depends upon what you want to do. The Firsts are the cruiser racers. They have more sail area but some models can be quite twitchy so you need to be pretty active with the sail trim (especially main).
 
kingfisher said:
Same hull,
Click to expand...

Pretty sure that hasn't been the case for a while. Certainly the new 40, 35, 45, 50 etc don't share hulls.

Which boat is for you really depends on where you put yourself in the eternal compromise between performance and comfort.
 
I'm in the same Boat (pardon the pun)

Hi All,

We are getting very close now fingers crossed to hopefully achieving our dream. We are weighing things up and have narrowed it down to either the 'First' or the 'Oceanis' ourselves, the First seems from all our research to be a great all round Boat and seems to fit our criteria of Cruising and then in the future some Blue Water work and perhaps some UK travels.

The Oceanis seems to have a more luxurious interior and more suited to cruising and has pace to boot. We are hoping fingers crossed to go and look at some over the next Month.

We are not ruling out the Bavaria 49 as for price and comfort they are certainly a consideration. Gosh it is a hard choice but at the end of the day we are looking for an adaptable Boat that will entertain family and friends but has the adaptability to enter the odd regatta and cruising Boat race one day. Both of us are Sports Adrenalin junkies lol and love the Water so we are leaning heavily towards the 'First '. When a young lass the Westerly was a thrill but then I wasn't sailing it as too young back then.

Have you chosen your Boat yet and how have you got on with it? What are your opinions as would love to know. Spending a life's work on a dream is a big deal thus getting it right is equally important:)

Many Thanks in Advance.

WaterBird
 
I sailed on an Oceanis 46 from Scheveningen to Lanzarote last year. We had a variety of weather, F7 and a very choppy North Sea -> perfect Biscay crossing -> F9 between Lagos and Lanzarote.
At no time did the boat 'slap' or feel unable to handle decent sized seas - trim the sails to suit and she was always manageable. I was impressed.
Also, I have sailed a Bavaria 46 across the channel in a F7 and she slapped continually.
The Bav is a lot wider than the Oceanis which meant that if you were steering from the windward wheel in a blow and the boat was heeled, it felt as though you were balanced precariously on the high side!

Just my two pen'orth...
 
Close But Different

The big differences that get my attention when looking at First series
a) Keel - much different shape fin w/ attached defined bulb on First - Oceanis has a much more subtle conventional fin (on deep draft version)

b) Traveler - In the cockpit on the First series vs in front of companionway (and on arch on new ones) for the Oceanis

Looking at the Beneteau website - they have "softened" the look of the bigger First series to attract more cruisers/racers vs cruiser leaning oceans
http://www.beneteau.com/Sailing-Yachts/First/First-45
 
Here in NZ the debate has raged for a lonmg time about the proud locally designed and built fleet versus the plastic imports - which many kiwis will have you believe are not fit for purpose for NZ's rugged sailing conditions.

Interestingly, despite these claims, the tide of imported boats has accelerated as the appeal of robust but tired looking used kiwis designs fades. And each year the marinas look increasingly like a typical European location with the odd kiwi design slotted in.

As for the acid test, modern AWBs seem to be faring well with no stories I am aware of that they can't cope with local conditions.

In fact the Round New Zealand race completed recently and the fleet inlcuded an interesting mix of old, new, kiwi designs, Europeans, cruising boats, hard core racing machines and everything in between. And the weather was atrocious with the W Coast of NZ creating a trecherous lee shore with reported 11m waves and 70kts+ winds - many hardened professionals said it was the worst they had ever seen the Tasman. A number of boats were damaged and had to pull in for repairs. And one boat (not racing but in the area at the same time) was lost when the owner had to be winched off having run out of sea room from the shore.

And after a resounding beating, which boat not only survived but kept going all the way with no breakages and won the race convincingly?

A Beneteau First 47.7 called "Surreal".

Here's what one member of the crew said when asked about the perceptions of questionable seaworthiness of AWBs:

I'd certainly be more than happy to do another "offshore" race on Surreal.

She has had a pretty impressive test of her abilities over the last few years... First the roughest RNI Two Handed Race in history and backed up with a rugged RNZ race in which Chris Skinner on Truxton described as 3 times worse than the RNI and in which Sunstone used their Trysail for the first time ever while racing and their Storm Jib for the first time in a race since the '87 Fastnet... Surreal survived both races pretty much unscathed.

From what I have seen the Beneteau First's are some of the better built overseas production boats. All the deck gear seems pretty grunty, the rig is solid with some nice detailing and the boat generally well engineered. If you wanted to regularly race offshore there are only a few relatively minor changes I would make.

"I think we have an over inflated opinion of how strong "Kiwi Built" boats are... Essentially unless you build a custom race boat complete with numerous ring frames and bulkheads (completely stuffing the interior for use as a cruiser) in conditions such as we experienced in the RNZ you will need to back off the gas at times and limit the slamming to avoid major damage. Any cruiser/racer has limitations and if you keep these in mind the boats are very capable. Surreal would have to be the driest and most comfortable boat that I have raced on. If you talked to any other crew at the end of the RNZ I think you will find they were pleased to have got to the finish... on Surreal we were disappointed that our adventure was coming to an end and would have loved another leg!"
 
Some First & Oceanis share hulls - especially older models. In these cases the Oceanis has a higher freeboard and a more voluminous lid. Generally the Oceanis setup is more simplistic - shorter mast, cabin-top traveller, no spinnaker, is less tweakable, shallower keel etc..- consequently they sail less well especially to windward. Saying that there is an O 351 at our club that does very well in round the cans races.
More recently Bene introduced the O Clipper range which were, I think, almost to First spec..
 
Rob_Webb said:
Here in NZ the debate has raged for a lonmg time about the proud locally designed and built fleet versus the plastic imports - which many kiwis will have you believe are not fit for purpose for NZ's rugged sailing conditions.

Interestingly, despite these claims, the tide of imported boats has accelerated as the appeal of robust but tired looking used kiwis designs fades. And each year the marinas look increasingly like a typical European location with the odd kiwi design slotted in.

As for the acid test, modern AWBs seem to be faring well with no stories I am aware of that they can't cope with local conditions.

In fact the Round New Zealand race completed recently and the fleet inlcuded an interesting mix of old, new, kiwi designs, Europeans, cruising boats, hard core racing machines and everything in between. And the weather was atrocious with the W Coast of NZ creating a trecherous lee shore with reported 11m waves and 70kts+ winds - many hardened professionals said it was the worst they had ever seen the Tasman. A number of boats were damaged and had to pull in for repairs. And one boat (not racing but in the area at the same time) was lost when the owner had to be winched off having run out of sea room from the shore.

And after a resounding beating, which boat not only survived but kept going all the way with no breakages and won the race convincingly?

A Beneteau First 47.7 called "Surreal".

Here's what one member of the crew said when asked about the perceptions of questionable seaworthiness of AWBs:

I'd certainly be more than happy to do another "offshore" race on Surreal.

She has had a pretty impressive test of her abilities over the last few years... First the roughest RNI Two Handed Race in history and backed up with a rugged RNZ race in which Chris Skinner on Truxton described as 3 times worse than the RNI and in which Sunstone used their Trysail for the first time ever while racing and their Storm Jib for the first time in a race since the '87 Fastnet... Surreal survived both races pretty much unscathed.

From what I have seen the Beneteau First's are some of the better built overseas production boats. All the deck gear seems pretty grunty, the rig is solid with some nice detailing and the boat generally well engineered. If you wanted to regularly race offshore there are only a few relatively minor changes I would make.

"I think we have an over inflated opinion of how strong "Kiwi Built" boats are... Essentially unless you build a custom race boat complete with numerous ring frames and bulkheads (completely stuffing the interior for use as a cruiser) in conditions such as we experienced in the RNZ you will need to back off the gas at times and limit the slamming to avoid major damage. Any cruiser/racer has limitations and if you keep these in mind the boats are very capable. Surreal would have to be the driest and most comfortable boat that I have raced on. If you talked to any other crew at the end of the RNZ I think you will find they were pleased to have got to the finish... on Surreal we were disappointed that our adventure was coming to an end and would have loved another leg!"
Click to expand...

Interesting post, sounds very familiar to the thoughts of some in the UK. i.e the only boats you should take off shore are those with long keels, narrow beam and over 30 years old :)
 
cmedsailor said:
I would like to know what the differences are, in general, between “First” and “Oceanis” series that Beneteau has. The “Oceanis” are supposed to be more for cruising whereas “First” are more oriented towards racing.
But what make them different? Different built quality, different construction method (comparing same year’s models), different design, different equipment?
Any ideas?
Thanks

PS: To make it even more interesting, some Oceanis models have borrowed their hulls from Firsts models!! So, what does that means now?
Click to expand...


Originally many Firsts were based on the same external hull mouldings as Oceanis, but with deeper heavier keels and bigger rigs, plus a slightly more spartan interior fitout. Now they seem different boats.

Current Firsts seem to have torpedo-bulb keels - in my opinion a horrible idea for cruising. Also many smaller Firsts of whatever vintage have very little bilge - any water below gets everywhere.

Have done a thousand or so miles on an early 43 ft Oceanis, not a bad boat at all, very comfortable and not that slow despite carrying a lot of gear including bimini, air-con and genset. With blazing sun and air temperatures in the 80s/90s stepping below into cool was seriously nice.

The newer the Oceanis the more corners are cut to reduce manufacturing costs. All the production builders are doing the same.
 
Having two distinct ranges from a manufacturer is nothing new to avoid loosing customers to a competitor when they need something more comfortable or something more spirited.

I have surveyed many Beneteau's both First and Oceanis models and while clearly the specification of the deck hardware is clearly different generally speaking the hull design and construction methodology is much the same. As already mentioned in previous posts the rig and keel designs reflect the different anticipated usage and interior fit-out is much more sparse in the First range.

If you are looking at a new build then find what works for your style of sailing. You may find the mainsheet in the cockpit with a removable cockpit table works better for you that having a coachroof mounted mainsheet track, fixed table and smaller sail area.

If you are looking at a pre-owned boat, be very cautious if you are looking at the First range as a boat that has been raced will generally have much more wear and tear.

Best of luck.
 
Wow fantastic reading, very, very helpful indeed

You guys are brilliant,

I certainly at this point in my life can't afford a new ' First ' or ' Oceanis ' and looking at the new First and reading through the specs it looks as though they are tuning the model more to Crusing. They have also gone from the single wheel to the dual as on the Oceanis, there seems rather a lot of changes.

It looks to me like they are going for a lower grade cutting costs style interior, whilst looking nice it isn't quite as nice as the older Boats. The exterior styling does look Beautiful, very attractive. The Oceanis 50 looks wonderful too, swaying more the opposite to the First, almost bringing a little more of the First into the equation. As you have already mentioned the Older Boats share the same hull but Keels differ, since we are looking at an older Boat these factors will matter but the choice between the two more open.

Both the Oceanis and First are certainly where we are focussing although looking long term the ' First ' fits the bill, what a pedigree. We as said cannot afford to even contemplate a new Boat so an early 00's is the focus and certainly not an ex Race Boat. A 40 to 50 is the range of size we anticipate although that may change :eek:

I am so pleased to see so much enthusiasm for both models, I am sure either is a fantastic Boat, so be very proud, I would be with either one:)

Condition, equipment,engine hours etc will all play a big part in our decision. Keeping an open mind on both the Oceanis and the First is the plan. If we were a little more seasoned in years wanting purely a Cruising feel we would go for the Oceanis no question but with some Need for speed left in our bodies the First may just win for now. The interior of the ' First ' still looks very nice mind you, not quite as luxurious.

It is wonderful to hear from those who have had experience of the two Models, it is greatly appreciated:) . The Bavaria's are nice Boats all the same but our preference is as above.

Waterbird:)
 
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