Beneteau 323 Lifting Keel

[rontaylor]

Has anyone any experience of the lifting keel version of the 323, in particular how does it sail compared to the deep fin keel? Also, are there a major maintenance issues with the lifting keel mechanism?

Regards

Ron Taylor

 

[SimbaDog]

I've got a deep keel version, think the lift keel ones are pretty rare

What do they draw ?

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[FullCircle]

exfinnsailor or Mrs Sea Mist II have a lift keel 323.

I have a very similar but slightly larger keel arrangement on my Sun Odyssey 35. No Difficulties with the arrangement, but it is a lot of turns to get it up!

 

[rontaylor]

Regarding draft, I think that it is from 2' 7" to 7". But with the greater draft, presumably to compensate for the lack of a bulb, and twin rudders I was curious to know how this affected sailing performance.

The lifting keel variant is not too common but quite ofton they do come up for sale.

Regards

Ron Taylor

 

[photodog]

I have sailed a lift keel 311... she was fine... though I cant compare with her fin keel cousin.... 2 points I would say... 1) The keel banging around in the box is a bit disconcerting...2) The twin rudders mean no prop wash..... so a difficult boat to manouver around the marina... and going astern was a bit of a gamble... ok once some weigh was on... but you need to think carefully....

IIRC these keels were not really designed to dry out on... IIRC(2) the early 331 lifters had some issues... but I think they were sorted out by recall of something...

 

[charles_reed]

Strictly speaking

You're all referring to a centreboarder NOT a lift-keel yacht!!

 

[FullCircle]

You're all referring to a centreboarder NOT a lift-keel yacht!!

Could you spell out the differential definitions then please Charles?

 

[photodog]

You're all referring to a centreboarder NOT a lift-keel yacht!!

errr... no... we are talking about the Beneteau 331 lift keel....

heres one..

 

[SimbaDog]

You're all referring to a centreboarder NOT a lift-keel yacht!!

I'm NOT!

 

[Greenwichman]

Beneteau liftkeel

Hello, I sail a Beany 285 with twin rudders and lift keel (similar configuration and design to her bigger sister).

Comments re handling under power (see earlier posts in this thread) while true are not an overwhelming issue; you get the hang of it after a while. The trick is to use power to get way on and then she will steer reliably ahead or astern.

The keel works well if you maintain the Archimedes screw. According to the Beany boat manual you should grease the screw 'regularly' from below with the keel fully wound down. Yeah, right!

What I discovered (after one failed screw (failed after thread stripped owing to lack of lubrication)) is that you can pour oil down the winding tube from above. This measure is oh-so-simple and keeps the winding mechanism sweet and working smoothly. In the interests of the environment I use a bio-degradable cooking oil (sunflower or vegetable, for example).

As for sailing - what a joy to be able to explore shallows others can't reach; and the deepwater performance is good, too, though the craft is a little more tender than she would be with a fixed keel. Again, you get what you pay for: a brilliantly nippy shoal draft cruiser-racer, with long enough legs for cross-Channel work etc.

Don't know how well this advice scales up to the one you are interested in; I believe the 'First' series are better all-rounders than the 'Oceanis', but I haven't got objective proof of that.

Hope this helps.

 

[bitman]

i sail a Beneteau 2008 Oceanis 343 with swing keel and twin rudders...

total draft with keel up is about 120cm. the keel box is like a long very shallow keel. going astern i have no problems as i know how to handle her, we do park her astern. i actually rarely lower the keel as she sail well with the keel up and is sailing about 1 knot faster then when down.

about maintains... yes, you will have to maintain this system very well otherwise you will get problems. lubricating the mechanic is important. also keep an eye on the draft as there is NO protection when hitting the seabed. you simply break it as it does NOT swing up like a Southerly / OVNI / Allures does...

personally I find the Beneteau swing keel a laugh (bad design) but i do like the twin rudders.

 

[Plevier]

I have a 1985 First 29 which is the immediate predecessor of Greenwichman's 285 and I'd agree with all he says.
I think the boat also makes more leeway (although she sails at a very good angle to the wind) presumably because of small area of the drop blade.

Draft keel up is about 500mm.

I agree about putting oil down from above (we both twigged that simultaneously!)

I've had to remove and overhaul the keel, lots of photos at http://picasaweb.google.com/wylde.m/Keel# (also shows the hull being gritblasted) and http://picasaweb.google.com/wylde.m/Keelnew#

This design of keel DOES just swing up if it hits the bottom, and the screw jack then sticks up out of the table inside the boat. Some later models (obviously including the 343) are different, I don't know which design the 323 is.

 

[bitman]

pictures

@willow3,

thanks for the nice pictures!

 

[GeorgeLlewellin]

Some experience of the 323

I have a 2004, Beneteau Oceanis 323 with lifting keel and twin rudders. She sails well, no doubt she might sail a little better with a fixed keel and bulb weight, but the performance is very good providing you don’t want to race around the cans every week. However if you do want to race then the swing keel has the great advantage of being able to partly lift the keel while running down wind. This moves the centre of lateral resistance aft, reducing the tendency to round up, increasing speed and improving handling qualities.

My boat is on a drying mooring and there have been no problems with that. The bottom is hard gravel, some owners have had problems with previous models drying in mud, where the boat sinking into the mud forces mud up the keel box and the water above it spills into the boat. Recent models have overcome this with a drain from the top of the keel box, if you intend keeping it on a mud berth then make sure there is a drain fitted and kept clear.

Handling is excellent, OK you do not have prop wash but providing you have at least ½ knot of way then you have steerage, forward and aft. The keel mechanism is really easy to grease with water proof grease just lower the keel while dried out, the screw simply comes out into the cabin, apply grease and replace. The keel is very easy to lift or lower, about 110 turns.

Someone on this thread asked for the definitive difference between a lifting keel and a centre board, I would say that the difference is weight. If it is heavy enough to make a difference to the centre of gravity then it is a lifting keel. In my opinion the 323 comes within the “lifting keel” category, and what is more that is what the makers call it.

Some of the earlier similar models, of similar design with lifting keels were more likely to fall over when dried out, the 323 with wings on the fixed keel, is much more stable, mine has been drying twice a day, all weathers since April this year, with no problems. I also have experience of my son’s First 29 with lifting keel and twin rudders, and I sailed on my brother’s Southerly 100 until recently, with no bow thruster, now that really was difficult to handle in close quarters.

Few boats have the absolute joy of being able to get right up into really shallow waters, and also have the ability to sail well at sea, this one does, what is more it is very cheap to moor.

George.

 

[Zippysigma]

I have a 311 lift keel and find that I need to reef earlier than most others. This is not a problem, but means that I am not carrying the canvas of a similar fixed keeler for those few knots of wind strength before they reef.

I also cannot seem to point as high as anyone else, but that could be my poor set up or operator error rather than anything to do with the keel/ rudders.

From a maintenance view, I agree that the screw is easily greased when beached. The biggest maintenance issue i have is antifouling inside the keel box and the keel with more than one coat. When standing on it's stub in the yard, you cannot lower the keel so have no access.

I usually ask the yard to clean out when still in the slings and antifoul the keel when putting her back in, but that only gets me one coat and I have to get the timing right to inspect or do any work myself.

On the plus side, i have explored areas that most others only see from afar. Happily drying out or just using the 0.85m draft to get to those East coast places at more states of the tide. I have been surprised how much pleasure exploring these areas beyond the mass moorings has given me. If i get stuck in the mud, I just wind the keel up a little more and keep going until it is time to anchor for the night.

So... I reckon it is a compromise of performance over extending my sailing area. The compromise suits my needs for now.

 

[photodog]

Thanks George and Chalk.... Quite keen to go out and buy one now!!

Especially keen to hear that the 323 can dry out.....

 

[mcanderson]

Lifting keel

Ron,

I have a Beneteau 323, but with the fin rather than lifting keel. I would just like to put in my 2 pence worth.

In summary, both my wife and I have been over the moon since we got our boat back in April. It’s not the end all and be all of yachting, however we find her just fantastic.

General ft and finish is just fine and she sails like a treat. We both like the huge heads and feel of space below. You can find lots of other Beneteau owners who are keen to have a chat and she is clean and dry.

If you’ve found one you like the look of, and are happy with the price go for it! I’m sure you’ll be happy. The B323 is a great yacht for 2, will take 4 happy and if you have more friends than us 6 at a pinch. Would have to be good friends!

 

[achwilan]

lifting keel

Quite agree with George and Chalk comments.
I have been using a 311 lifting keel for some years and I'll add that:
- you can motor it in a shoebox once you've grown accustomed to its unusual behaviour
- I think you can point upwind just as the fin keel, but a bit slower (heavier boat, a good lifting keel profile, but hydrodynamically unhappy design of the fixed part)
- downwind you can play with the keel position just as with a dinghy's centreboard, and even lift it up totally; and with strong winds, especially with a spi the twin rudders give you a much better control of the boat (and a treacherous feeling of easiness...as I nearly lost the chute and the mast, that way, some years ago)
- the ability to explore small bays and creeks is wonderful... marina people can't understand

 

[Plevier]

I have a 2004, Beneteau Oceanis 323 with lifting keel and twin rudders. She sails well, no doubt she might sail a little better with a fixed keel and bulb weight, but the performance is very good providing you don’t want to race around the cans every week. However if you do want to race then the swing keel has the great advantage of being able to partly lift the keel while running down wind. This moves the centre of lateral resistance aft, reducing the tendency to round up, increasing speed and improving handling qualities.

My boat is on a drying mooring and there have been no problems with that. The bottom is hard gravel, some owners have had problems with previous models drying in mud, where the boat sinking into the mud forces mud up the keel box and the water above it spills into the boat. Recent models have overcome this with a drain from the top of the keel box, if you intend keeping it on a mud berth then make sure there is a drain fitted and kept clear.

Handling is excellent, OK you do not have prop wash but providing you have at least ½ knot of way then you have steerage, forward and aft. The keel mechanism is really easy to grease with water proof grease just lower the keel while dried out, the screw simply comes out into the cabin, apply grease and replace. The keel is very easy to lift or lower, about 110 turns.

Someone on this thread asked for the definitive difference between a lifting keel and a centre board, I would say that the difference is weight. If it is heavy enough to make a difference to the centre of gravity then it is a lifting keel. In my opinion the 323 comes within the “lifting keel” category, and what is more that is what the makers call it.

Some of the earlier similar models, of similar design with lifting keels were more likely to fall over when dried out, the 323 with wings on the fixed keel, is much more stable, mine has been drying twice a day, all weathers since April this year, with no problems. I also have experience of my son’s First 29 with lifting keel and twin rudders, and I sailed on my brother’s Southerly 100 until recently, with no bow thruster, now that really was difficult to handle in close quarters.

Few boats have the absolute joy of being able to get right up into really shallow waters, and also have the ability to sail well at sea, this one does, what is more it is very cheap to moor.

George.

Well I do race my First 29 round the cans every week! Enjoyably - I haven't won yet but not disgracing us.
The boat dries on most tides on fairly firm mud. No problems yet. You can see the keelbox vent at http://picasaweb.google.com/wylde.m/Keel#5268944354478696466 and where it joins into the galley drain at http://picasaweb.google.com/wylde.m/Keel#5266353656150548162 (into the Y piece). Apparently you can get smells from it which could be why the previous owner had disconnected and plugged it, but it hasn't happened to me. I believe later models take the vent to its own skin fitting. I don't leave the seacock open, I reckon the pipework and sink would give enough buffer capacity. No water has come up into the sink yet.
She is very stable sat on the stub (which weighs a ton) and rudders. The rudders are rather short to be level with the stub and I do think this affects the weight and feel of the helm. This, the tenderness and the leeway are design compromises but to me tolerable for the advantages.
From having the (disgustingly poor quality cast iron, full of blowholes) swing keel/centreboard - whichever you care to call it - in my trailer I would say it's approaching 1/2 ton, certainly over 1/4 ton.

George, where is your son's boat? I haven't seen another 29 lift keel model and would like to! Mine's near Brighton.

 

[GeorgeLlewellin]

George, where is your son's boat? I haven't seen another 29 lift keel model and would like to! Mine's near Brighton.

Came from Maryport, Cumberland, was here in Pembrokeshire for some months, been in Fareham for the last 2 years.