Belgium, how red is red?

skipper_stu said:
If red is red whatever nationality then all nationalities should be fined according to your criteria? That also means that non eu commercial freighters should be fined? If they are not then the question has to be asked why not? I have said twice already that I dont think they are fining non eu freighters or non eu boats therefore it is exceedingly logical to bring the Brexit argument in. Out of the eu means we are the same as the ones not being fined? So Brexit is not something that I am fixated about (unlike remoaners!) just something that will come in to consideration when people are considering going to Belguim in 18 months or so time! As it happens I am pretty confident that the new Minister and the jobsworths that are doing this are doing so to spite us Brits for daring to leave the eu!
Stu
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The Belgian law is about private pleasure craft and has nothing to do with commercial freighters. I suspect they would fine any private pleasure craft they found with red in the tank albeit there wont be many of them in Belgium that are not EU boats.
 
Biggles Wader said:
The Belgian law is about private pleasure craft and has nothing to do with commercial freighters. I suspect they would fine any private pleasure craft they found with red in the tank albeit there wont be many of them in Belgium that are not EU boats.
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Exactly - commercial craft are allowed to use red diesel, it's just us that cannot. The whole purpose of marking the fuel is to distinguish between the vehicles that can legally use it and those that can't.
 
GrahamM376 said:
I think you're wrong Stu. Their law states no red diesel and innocent passage finishes when you're visiting rather than in transit, regardless of your nationality. The coastal State can then impose whatever rules they want.
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But where do you distinguish between big ship going to Antwerp to unload then load for a week and Captain Muddy Waters from the east coast going for a week or a couple of days on the way to Holland on their annual cruise?
Even the bunker burners will most likely have red diesel in their lifeboats (thas where geem got his from halfway across the atlantic! ) or for their smaller gennies.
Stu
Stu
 
skipper_stu said:
But where do you distinguish between big ship going to Antwerp to unload then load for a week and Captain Muddy Waters from the east coast going for a week or a couple of days on the way to Holland on their annual cruise?
Even the bunker burners will most likely have red diesel in their lifeboats (thas where geem got his from halfway across the atlantic! ) or for their smaller gennies.
Stu
Stu
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Not sure why you are bringing in all these spurious arguments. Commercial lifeboats are NOT private leisure craft.

It is pointless trying to speculate what will happen when we leave the EU. There are so many uncertainties about our future relationship with the EU, either on an interim basis (as seems likely) or long term. Pretty sure that red diesel is very low on the list of priorities in the negotiations - and indeed the matter may be clarified before 2019.

The only thing that matters now as angele says is how the belgian law is being used now, and it seems that as usual it is the local customs officer that makes that decision (maybe with instructions) as there does not seem to have been a court case to clarify.
 
Angele said:
There are speed limits on the roads in the UK and it is illegal to break them. Despite attempts by campaigners to force police to fine any driver who exceeds the limit by any margin whatsoever - those campaigners won in the High court - most drivers believe that the chances of getting pulled over for doing 62mph in open country is vanishingly small.

So, in the real world, what REALLY matters is how a law is enforced day to day.

You can carry on banging away all you like about what the Belgian law says. And you would be correct to say that, if you had zero red in your tanks they can't fine you (not for red diesel, at least). But the opposite (a small amount of red diesel and they will fine you) is PROBABLY not true.

Some of us care/want to know about how the Belgian customs are enforcing it at a given moment in time. We know what the law says.
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So now you know what the Belgian law states i.e. NO DYE but what you now also want to know is at what level of detection do they consider or actually fine you. It seems obvious from the current crop of fines that if they detect any sign of DYE they issue a fine. The only way I can help you with your question is to suggest that you go and ask a Belgian customs officer preferably with a tank full of ever so lightly pink tinged fuel and see what he says. I think you will be coming back with a pink face and a wallet several hundred euros less than when you asked the question.
 
skipper_stu said:
If red is red whatever nationality then all nationalities should be fined according to your criteria? That also means that non eu commercial freighters should be fined? If they are not then the question has to be asked why not? I have said twice already that I dont think they are fining non eu freighters or non eu boats therefore it is exceedingly logical to bring the Brexit argument in. Out of the eu means we are the same as the ones not being fined? So Brexit is not something that I am fixated about (unlike remoaners!) just something that will come in to consideration when people are considering going to Belguim in 18 months or so time! As it happens I am pretty confident that the new Minister and the jobsworths that are doing this are doing so to spite us Brits for daring to leave the eu!
Stu
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Commercial vessels are exempt.
 
In almost all respects, we accept that as soon as we enter another country, we are bound by the laws of that country. We accept their laws on drugs, alcohol, guns and pretty much everything else. We sailors accept differences in the laws governing the use and equipment of our boats - France will fine us if we do not have the safety equipment they mandate and it is in working order.

Fuel really is the only exception. There is an informal agreement (I don't remember its name) that governments don't ask too many questions about the fuel in the tanks of a boat or aircraft that is passing through - but I don't think this is formalised in international law. Governments have agreed that it is in their mutual interests to do this since it is just impractical to ensure that you arrive with empty tanks. The Belgians don't seem to be following this at the moment where private craft are concerned.
 
maby said:
In almost all respects, we accept that as soon as we enter another country, we are bound by the laws of that country. We accept their laws on drugs, alcohol, guns and pretty much everything else. We sailors accept differences in the laws governing the use and equipment of our boats - France will fine us if we do not have the safety equipment they mandate and it is in working order.

Fuel really is the only exception. There is an informal agreement (I don't remember its name) that governments don't ask too many questions about the fuel in the tanks of a boat or aircraft that is passing through - but I don't think this is formalised in international law. Governments have agreed that it is in their mutual interests to do this since it is just impractical to ensure that you arrive with empty tanks. The Belgians don't seem to be following this at the moment where private craft are concerned.
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That is correct in terms of a vessel that docks in another territory you are obliged to follow their national laws but by convention fuel is ignored. However with respect to transiting a countries territorial waters countries by international law are obliged to give unhindered passage and one is not compelled to adhere to their national laws.
 
Sitting here in Antwerp I had the Doune come round and had a chat
Photographed my ssr
Asked how big my fuel tank is
Reply
30 ltrs
Bid me good day and good bye
Next stop breskins
Have fun
Regards Laurie
 
HMRC have some guidance on this matter which can be found here:-

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...leasure-craft-and-for-private-pleasure-flying

Within the text, section 3 covers what is and is not legal and in effect, if I have understood it correctly, applies only to UK waters. Section 3.4 contains a paragraph:-

From 1 April 2012 legislation was changed to make clear that the use of red diesel with full duty paid for propelling private pleasure craft is permitted under UK national legislation within UK waters. When red diesel is used outside UK waters it will be subject to any prohibitions and restrictions that apply in the waters of the member state or country in whose waters it is used.

So if our Belgian friends decide that any level of marking is illegal then it would appear they are entitled to do so. I am not a lawyer so may have got it completely wrong :)

RYA advice on Red Diesel abroad can be found here:-

http://www.rya.org.uk/knowledge-advice/boating-abroad/Pages/red-diesel-abroad.aspx

Cheers
 
I agree with Angele, it's important to know how the law is being enforced. If they are carrying out chemical testing then this EU document seems to show that dye marker cannot be reliably detected in chemical testing in concentrations less than 0.12mg/l, where our red diesel contains a maximum of 9mg/l. If this is the case then a 1:75 dilution of your red would take care of that... http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_custom...gy_products/legislation/euromarker_report.pdf

If they are simply carrying out an eyeball check, then are they just dipping the tank, or are they looking at staining of the pipes or fuel filter? Are they using an improved chemical testing method? I think we need more information from the RYA.
 
petehb said:
It seems obvious from the current crop of fines that if they detect any sign of DYE they issue a fine.
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NO IT ISN'T.

We have only heard about people who got fined. How do you or I know whether the customs have let off one skipper (or perhaps hundreds of people) where what the customs officer saw may not have been clear cut? "Well, Monsieur, that looks a bit pinkish to me, but I'll let you off. Don't do it again or I will be forced to fine you next time."

You are speculating that everyone they have inspected with mildly pinkish diesel in their tanks has been fined.

I'm just telling you that we don't know that. It therefore follows that we cannot be certain that the Belgians are fining everyone with a detectable level of red, however small.
 
Angele said:
NO IT ISN'T.

We have only heard about people who got fined. How do you or I know whether the customs have let off one skipper (or perhaps hundreds of people) where what the customs officer saw may not have been clear cut? "Well, Monsieur, that looks a bit pinkish to me, but I'll let you off. Don't do it again or I will be forced to fine you next time."

You are speculating that everyone they have inspected with mildly pinkish diesel in their tanks has been fined.

I'm just telling you that we don't know that. It therefore follows that we cannot be certain that the Belgians are fining everyone with a detectable level of red, however small.
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The other possibility is that they treat it rather like we treat speeding fines in this country. You receive a notice that the police believe that you have committed an offence and you are invited to admit to it and pay the fine. You also have the option to contest it in which case it will go to court and you run the risk of being more heavily penalised. We have not seen any paperwork issued by the Belgian authorities to the people that have received the fine, but I would strongly expect that the small print would explain that they have the right to challenge it in court following laboratory testing of the suspect fuel.
 
Angele said:
NO IT ISN'T.

We have only heard about people who got fined. How do you or I know whether the customs have let off one skipper (or perhaps hundreds of people) where what the customs officer saw may not have been clear cut? "Well, Monsieur, that looks a bit pinkish to me, but I'll let you off. Don't do it again or I will be forced to fine you next time."

You are speculating that everyone they have inspected with mildly pinkish diesel in their tanks has been fined.

I'm just telling you that we don't know that. It therefore follows that we cannot be certain that the Belgians are fining everyone with a detectable level of red, however small.
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You are speculating that they have inspected someone and let them off because it may have been pink. What I have said or written is that the law as transcribed and as far as available evidence supports is that any level of DYE is illegal and contravenes Belgian law. How they detect it and whatever the limits of detection are is of no consequence and I can tell you that the markers used with the DYE and they are included in the definition are traceable in PPM levels if they wish to. There has been admittedly anecdotal comment that even after a year of using white there is still a visible trace of red and that would most certainly be sufficient to alert the customs officer if he chose to do his duty under Belgian law.
 
To summarise...
If you take your boat to Belgium, there is a chance that you may be fined if you have ever had dyed diesel in your tanks.
 
When we already have two very active threads running on this issue, one a sticky,

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?481676-Red-diesel-problems-in-Belgium-again-it-seems

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?436613-Ostende-and-red-diesel-BEWARE

isn't this third one a bit of overkill.

As they are the nearest to Belgium and are so most involved, IMHO, the two threads in this forum should be merged with the sticky on The East Coast Forum but if this is not possible this thread should at least merged with the other here.

This should ensure this important issue gets the most effective coverage.
 
nortada said:
When we already have two very active threads running on this issue, one a sticky,

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?481676-Red-diesel-problems-in-Belgium-again-it-seems

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?436613-Ostende-and-red-diesel-BEWARE

isn't this third one a bit of overkill.

As they are the nearest to Belgium and are so most involved, IMHO, the two threads in this forum should be merged with the sticky on The East Coast Forum but if this is not possible this thread should at least merged with the other here.

This should ensure this important issue gets the most effective coverage.
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That was a little bit assertive, that fence getting uncomfortable or are you touting for a mods job:p
 
J
petehb said:
You are speculating that they have inspected someone and let them off because it may have been pink. What I have said or written is that the law as transcribed and as far as available evidence supports is that any level of DYE is illegal and contravenes Belgian law. How they detect it and whatever the limits of detection are is of no consequence and I can tell you that the markers used with the DYE and they are included in the definition are traceable in PPM levels if they wish to. There has been admittedly anecdotal comment that even after a year of using white there is still a visible trace of red and that would most certainly be sufficient to alert the customs officer if he chose to do his duty under Belgian law.
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No. You are speculating that everyone with diesel in their tanks that is not pure white has been fined. I'm saying that we don't know that for certain.

I'm not saying anyone has been let off. I'm saying I don't know.

I can't believe you appear incapable of understanding this. Please put me on ignore.
 
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No I am not I am saying that from what we know everyone that has been inspected and found to have traces of dye has been fined we don't know if others have been inspected or not but I think it's reasonable to assume that are inspecting vessels at random.
 
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