Belgium, how red is red?

[Heckler]

I read an article on the Triton of a us vessel being fined... it was more of a superhacnt than one of our size.

If Belgium are fining supertankers then they are even more stupid than I think they are!
Stu

 

[Heckler]

I'm forgetting who did what. Whether it was the Belgians or the Germans, but IIRC two(?) American boats faced fines for red diesel. They were prepared to hire lawyers to fight their case. Don't know if it ever came to court, or what happened.

Don't assume that septics are immune from these problems.

My point is that after Brexit we will be in the same position as Americans and I will bet that they, the Belgians, would be the ones backing down.
Stu

 

[longjohnsilver]

My point is that after Brexit we will be in the same position as Americans and I will bet that they, the Belgians, would be the ones backing down.
Stu

Why? Red diesel is red in any tank regardless of which nationality. You seem to be fixated with Brexit being the answer to all the problems we have in the U.K. and Europe.

 

[Angele]

go there with an auxiliary tank of containing un-marked road diesel and which is plumbed to the engine. This act does not make it illegal to have red fuel aboard but disallows its use. As it's only Belgian domestic law they can only apply it in their own waters. How much fuel does one need to get from the edge of Belgian domestic waters to a port? 6 litres? Most of us should be able to fit an auxiliary tank this size I think.

I'm no expert in the inner workings of a diesel engine, but doesn't the flow through the engine exceed the amount combusted, with a return back to the tank? The first several litres of return of white diesel will definitely be stained pink (because of the pipes, fuel filter etc), so need to be sent back to the red diesel tank. Only when you are sure that all red has gone would it then be ok to return the excess to the white tank. Unless you have a separate fuel filter only for white, I suspect that would never happen.

So, either you need a tank bigger than your proposed 6 litres


....... or just avoid Belgium.

 

[Angele]

My point is that after Brexit we will be in the same position as Americans and I will bet that they, the Belgians, would be the ones backing down.
Stu

I wish I shared your optimism. As it is a domestic Belgian law, I don't see how you can be so bullish.

I'm with L J S on this. The Germans fined American boats. Belgium can do the same. And being outside the EU makes it even harder to use EU institutions (ECJ) to take them on (not that I am holding my breath for a resolution through that route even while we remain part of the EU).

 

[maby]

Sir, your maths needs a bit of revision...
if you dilute 9:1 twice you end up with 81:1 so in 2 steps you would need to empty a 30 gallon tank to just under 3 1/2 gallons to do the job.

And, if you only half empty a tank before refilling then you would need to do it 7 times.

I did wonder about that when I posted it! It seemed to make sense when I wrote the original! Anyway, the bottom line is that full scrubbing of tanks is not necessary - the test is not that sensitive. They rely on colour for a quick indication of fuel misuse and, apparently, will issue spot fines if they think they can see traces of marker. You should be able to challenge this in court if you believe that you are sufficiently clean - at which point the deciding factor would be the results of a proper laboratory test.

 

[GrahamM376]

My point is that after Brexit we will be in the same position as Americans and I will bet that they, the Belgians, would be the ones backing down.
Stu

I think you're wrong Stu. Their law states no red diesel and innocent passage finishes when you're visiting rather than in transit, regardless of your nationality. The coastal State can then impose whatever rules they want.

 

[dom]

So, either you need a tank bigger than your proposed 6 litres

....... or just avoid Belgium.

Okay got it, so we need:
3x diesel tanks,
6x filter units,
63x spare cartridges,
2x pipe cleaning systems,
1x City law firm partner in an aft cabin.and
1x Partridge in a pear tree!!

By God those Belgian moules must be good

 

[Angele]

Okay got it, so we need:
3x diesel tanks,
6x filter units,
63x spare cartridges,
2x pipe cleaning systems,
1x City law firm partner in an aft cabin.and
1x Partridge in a pear tree!!

By God those Belgian moules must be good

lol

You forgot the 4.5in Mk8 naval gun installed just forward of the mast.

 

[Pete7]

- the test is not that sensitive. They rely on colour for a quick indication of fuel misuse and, apparently, will issue spot fines if they think they can see traces of marker.

Really? I thought tests were available for the chemical marker that is also included in the dye down to something like 3ppm? Either way its a E500 gamble if you are wrong.

Pete

 

[maby]

Okay got it, so we need:
3x diesel tanks,
6x filter units,
63x spare cartridges,
2x pipe cleaning systems,
1x City law firm partner in an aft cabin.and
1x Partridge in a pear tree!!

By God those Belgian moules must be good

You will also need to stop just outside their territorial waters, and reroute the fuel pipes - the presence of any diverter valve that allows you to link the engine to the tank containing heating fuel will immediately put you on the wrong side of the law.

 

[dom]

You will also need to stop just outside their territorial waters, and reroute the fuel pipes - the presence of any diverter valve that allows you to link the engine to the tank containing heating fuel will immediately put you on the wrong side of the law.

Not a problem ...I'm picturing Daydream Believer abseiling down the side of the Douane office in Nieuwpoort

,...and all because the lady loves Black Magic

 

[maby]

Really? I thought tests were available for the chemical marker that is also included in the dye down to something like 3ppm? Either way its a E500 gamble if you are wrong.

Pete

The standard dosing level is 6mg per litre which will be around 6ppm - I'm not sure of the density of diesel. The threshold for a positive test is defined somewhere in all the endless EU documments - it is around 0.1mg per litre - the inference that you need to dilute red by about 75:1 with white to avoid prosecution comes from those figures.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

The standard dosing level is 6mg per litre which will be around 6ppm - I'm not sure of the density of diesel. The threshold for a positive test is defined somewhere in all the endless EU documments - it is around 0.1mg per litre - the inference that you need to dilute red by about 75:1 with white to avoid prosecution comes from those figures.

You haven't been reading all the threads, it is not a question of how much, it is if there is any trace or indication of a dye because thats is the way the Belgians have chosen to incorporate the directive into Belgian law.

 

[Angele]

You haven't been reading all the threads, it is not a question of how much, it is if there is any trace or indication of a dye because thats is the way the Belgians have chosen to incorporate the directive into Belgian law.

What the Belgian law says is one thing. How it is being used in practice may or may not be another. Now, we know that the approach by customs has changed dramatically in the last month.

What we don't know, however, is whether all the boats that got fined had diesel that was blatantly red or just a bit pinkish. It may be (I stress may, because I am trying not to be as definitive as you) that the Belgian customs are giving people the benefit of the doubt if their tests are inconclusive, and just fining those that are clearly red.

Neither you nor I know. Sadly, nor does the OP who asked the question in the first place.

 

[grumpy_o_g]

As I understand it they are fining because we are not complying with EU law which they think we should do because we are part of it. After Brexit we are not part of EU and therefore are not bound by EU law. We Will then be the same status as any visiting non EU vessel, taking it to the extreme, the same as a non EU freighter. So the rule of "free paasage" comes in to play. Are they dipping diesel freighters? Or what do they say about tax free bunker oil?
Stu

There is no EU "law" though - it's a directive and non-compliance with directives is dealt with by the EU fining the Government of the member state, not by fining a citizen/subject. Ironically the US sum it up well here http://http://www.usda-eu.org/eu-ba...between-a-regulation-directive-and-decision/. I think jdc has it spot on - we need to see the exact Belgian law that is being broken and it's a very poor show by the RYA not have provided this. At least that way you would know what offence you were being charged with and how to avoid it.

It may be that that particular Belgian law is not compatible with EU directives (that's not allowed by the EU and Belgium should be fined if it is the case) or that the Belgian law is incompatible with the UK's interpretation of the EU Directive but that it doesn't actually break any EU directives. If the latter is the case it's tough basically, as that's a bit like speed limits being different in Belgium - you just have to follow whatever the local laws are.

The problem here is that nobody has given us the nitty-gritty of the local laws. Maybe ybw/Time Inc could contact one or two of the yachtsmen fined and see what law they were fined under and give us a translation/interpretation (you'd think the RYA would have done that). If they have could ybw publish it for us please?

 

[Fr J Hackett]

What the Belgian law says is one thing. How it is being used in practice may or may not be another. Now, we know that the approach by customs has changed dramatically in the last month.

What we don't know, however, is whether all the boats that got fined had diesel that was blatantly red or just a bit pinkish. It may be (I stress may, because I am trying not to be as definitive as you) that the Belgian customs are giving people the benefit of the doubt if their tests are inconclusive, and just fining those that are clearly red.

Neither you nor I know. Sadly, nor does the OP who asked the question in the first place.

If you look at the thread just a few pages back you can see exactly what the Belgian law states and how it is interpreted NO DYE.
I grant you we have no information as to whether a boat has been checked and cleared with a hint or more of dye, I suspect not. The post that started this refers to a boat that had been replenishing its tanks with white and was certainly diluted but still showed traces.
One needs to understand the law as it is enacted in Belgium NO DYE and then you can be quite proscriptive about whether it is red, pink, rose or just a tinge of DYE in every case the Belgian law is contravened and a fine will result. Just so you are clear it is any DYE in any quantity that contravenes Belgian law. Got it.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

That was extremely helpful, thank you. Digging in, I found:

28 JUIN 2015. - Arrêté royal concernant la taxation des produits énergétiques et de l'électricité
numac 2015003213
pub. 23/07/2015
prom. 28/06/2015

"Art. 54.Les carburants liquides, présents dans le pays, détenus, vendus ou utilisés :
… 2° pour l’alimentation des moteurs à explosion ou des moteurs à combustion interne installés sur des bateaux de plaisance privés visés à l'article 429, § 2, g), de la loi, pour la navigation sur des voies navigables intérieures ou dans des eaux communautaires, ne peuvent contenir ni dénaturant ni marqueur."

It's domestic law in Belgium, not an EU directive. It's quite clear, although it may itself be in violation of EU laws or directives (not the same thing), so nothing can to be done to argue around it. So either one obeys it or one doesn't go there (I shall not be going). To obey it one has two options I think:
1. go there from a non-EU place, and declare that one will leave for a non-EU destination. May be difficult to prove (for a year or two yet), or
2. go there with an auxiliary tank of containing un-marked road diesel and which is plumbed to the engine. This act does not make it illegal to have red fuel aboard but disallows its use. As it's only Belgian domestic law they can only apply it in their own waters. How much fuel does one need to get from the edge of Belgian domestic waters to a port? 6 litres? Most of us should be able to fit an auxiliary tank this size I think.

Of course this means that the OP's question is very much apposite!

You may be correct in how they have enacted the directive into Belgian law, here is a post from the East Coast discussion that refers to the "Royal Decree"

image: http://www.ybw.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.png

Re: Ostende and red diesel - BEWARE

This was he reply to my email which I have reproduced below ( I have redacted personal details) - Short and to the point, but what are 'Union Waters' and no further information about why certain boats were targeted....

Dear Sir,

According to the Royal Decree of June 28th 2015, article 54, 2° states clearly that liquid motor fuels present, sold or used to drive an explosion or combustion engine of private pleasure crafts cannot contain any denaturates nor markers, on ilnad waterways or Union waters.

Sincerely,


Dienst PR&C - Communicatie AAD&A
Service RP&C - Communication AAD&A



Verzonden: vrijdag 14 juli 2017 15:39
Aan: Minfin Info Douane (MINFIN)
Onderwerp: Marked Diesel

Dear Sir
It is clear then that, in July, a number of British and Dutch leisure
boats in Belgium channel ports have received hefty fines for having
Marked Diesel in their tanks, some with only a trace.

What is also clear is that there is insufficient information about the
circumstances of the recent incidents. Upsetting the local Customs
personnel may be a factor but I reckon not.

If I fill my tank with Red Diesel and pay full duty in the UK and have a
receipt to prove it am I still committing an infringement of the rules
simply by having marked diesel in the tank. Were the fined boats unable
to produce receipts, or is there some other issue.....

As it is almost impossible to obtain unmarked diesel in UK Marinas, I
feel unable to visit Belgium by boat or for that matter any othe rmeans
Yours sincerely

Shotley
UK


Il est clair alors qu'en juillet, un certain nombre de bateaux de
plaisance britanniques et néerlandais dans les ports de la chaîne belge
ont reçu de lourdes amendes pour avoir marqué Diesel dans leurs
réservoirs, certains avec seulement une trace.

Ce qui est également clair, c'est qu'il n'y a pas suffisamment
d'informations sur les circonstances des incidents récents. Déplacer le
personnel douanier local peut être un facteur, mais je ne sais pas.

Si je remplis mon réservoir avec Red Diesel et que je paye un plein
devoir au Royaume-Uni et que je reçois un reçu pour le prouver, je suis
toujours en train de commettre une infraction aux règles simplement en
ayant un diesel marqué dans le réservoir. Les bateaux ayant reçu une
amende n'étaient-ils pas capables de produire des recettes, ou y a-t-il
un autre problème ...

Comme il est presque impossible d'obtenir un diesel non marqué dans les
Marinas britanniques, je me sens incapable de visiter la Belgique en
bateau ou, en fait, tout moyen​

"Keep true to the dreams of your youth."
Friedrich Schiller (1759 - 1805)
​

Read more at http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthrea...-red-diesel-BEWARE/page19#oYKSS4iXpjyD67VZ.99

There is no EU "law" though - it's a directive and non-compliance with directives is dealt with by the EU fining the Government of the member state, not by fining a citizen/subject. Ironically the US sum it up well here http://http://www.usda-eu.org/eu-ba...between-a-regulation-directive-and-decision/. I think jdc has it spot on - we need to see the exact Belgian law that is being broken and it's a very poor show by the RYA not have provided this. At least that way you would know what offence you were being charged with and how to avoid it.

It may be that that particular Belgian law is not compatible with EU directives (that's not allowed by the EU and Belgium should be fined if it is the case) or that the Belgian law is incompatible with the UK's interpretation of the EU Directive but that it doesn't actually break any EU directives. If the latter is the case it's tough basically, as that's a bit like speed limits being different in Belgium - you just have to follow whatever the local laws are.

The problem here is that nobody has given us the nitty-gritty of the local laws. Maybe ybw/Time Inc could contact one or two of the yachtsmen fined and see what law they were fined under and give us a translation/interpretation (you'd think the RYA would have done that). If they have could ybw publish it for us please?

The above posts show how the Belgians have formulated their law and at the moment there is a case before the ECJ between the UK and Belgium to decide on which is the correct interpretation of the directive as it was intended. In respect of Belgium enacting a local law you may be correct and the ECJ if they get around to it may say that both sides are correct for different reasons.

 

[Angele]

If you look at the thread just a few pages back you can see exactly what the Belgian law states and how it is interpreted NO DYE.
I grant you we have no information as to whether a boat has been checked and cleared with a hint or more of dye, I suspect not. The post that started this refers to a boat that had been replenishing its tanks with white and was certainly diluted but still showed traces.
One needs to understand the law as it is enacted in Belgium NO DYE and then you can be quite proscriptive about whether it is red, pink, rose or just a tinge of DYE in every case the Belgian law is contravened and a fine will result. Just so you are clear it is any DYE in any quantity that contravenes Belgian law. Got it.

There are speed limits on the roads in the UK and it is illegal to break them. Despite attempts by campaigners to force police to fine any driver who exceeds the limit by any margin whatsoever - those campaigners won in the High court - most drivers believe that the chances of getting pulled over for doing 62mph in open country is vanishingly small.

So, in the real world, what REALLY matters is how a law is enforced day to day.

You can carry on banging away all you like about what the Belgian law says. And you would be correct to say that, if you had zero red in your tanks they can't fine you (not for red diesel, at least). But the opposite (a small amount of red diesel and they will fine you) is PROBABLY not true.

Some of us care/want to know about how the Belgian customs are enforcing it at a given moment in time. We know what the law says.

 

[Heckler]

Why? Red diesel is red in any tank regardless of which nationality. You seem to be fixated with Brexit being the answer to all the problems we have in the U.K. and Europe.

If red is red whatever nationality then all nationalities should be fined according to your criteria? That also means that non eu commercial freighters should be fined? If they are not then the question has to be asked why not? I have said twice already that I dont think they are fining non eu freighters or non eu boats therefore it is exceedingly logical to bring the Brexit argument in. Out of the eu means we are the same as the ones not being fined? So Brexit is not something that I am fixated about (unlike remoaners!) just something that will come in to consideration when people are considering going to Belguim in 18 months or so time! As it happens I am pretty confident that the new Minister and the jobsworths that are doing this are doing so to spite us Brits for daring to leave the eu!
Stu