Belgium, how red is red?

[johnphilip]

I have waded through a lot of the 30 page thread and given up trying to find an answer to how much red in the tank constitutes an offence.
I see that the headlines are people fined for "traces of red".
However when this arose a few years ago i recall there was a specific percentage, perhaps it was 2%, which could not be exceeded. I worked out that emptying the tank and refilling and repeating the operation once more should bring you within the EU regulations. I cannot now find any reference to a regulation defining the requirement, anybody else know?
I have let my RYA membership lapse but perhaps a member could ask their legal dept.

 

[Biggles Wader]

The answer to your question is "nobody knows" so the advice is to avoid Belgium.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

I think the answer is any if it's detectable by any means.

 

[FWB]

Douglas Adams sums it up nicely.....
....There is one word that is still beyond the pale.The concept it embodies is so revolting that the publication or broadcast of the word is utterly forbidden in all parts of the galaxy except one-where they don't know what it means.
That word is "Belgium" .

 

[maby]

I think the answer is any if it's detectable by any means.

I researched this in some detail a couple of years ago. There is no explicit statement relating to the maximum level of contamination by red diesel that is acceptable, but the marking regime and testing procedures are defined in detail including the sensitivity of the test and from this, it is possible to infer some figures. I don't remember the detail now, but I did post my calculations here at some length. The conclusion was that if you start with a tank full of red diesel, you would need to run it down to a few litres above empty and refill with white at least twice to get the level of contamination below the threshold of the test. Obviously the figures depend on the tank size - I believe that I calculated based on a tank of around 200 litres - the sort of thing you find in a modern modern sized sailing boat.

This would not necessarily get to a point where the dye is undetectable, just to a point where a lawyer could argue that the test is not reliable - the Belgian authorities could still try to fine you, but you should have a good chance of winning in court.

 

[maby]

OK - found it :

"Well, at least this bit is clearly defined - you need to dilute 75:1 with white diesel to get below the threshold - so it really is not feasible to do it in even two steps with a 30 gallon tank - you would need to run it down to less than half a gallon - certainly running a serious risk of running out of fuel, probably sucking all sorts of gunge out to the bottom of the tank and into your engine and, probably, not even possible since the dip tube probably does not get close enough to the bottom of the tank. I think that the concensus from Belgium - where they have already done this - is that it takes at least three cycles of running it almost empty, then filling up almost completely to get there."

 

[Fr J Hackett]

OK - found it :

"Well, at least this bit is clearly defined - you need to dilute 75:1 with white diesel to get below the threshold - so it really is not feasible to do it in even two steps with a 30 gallon tank - you would need to run it down to less than half a gallon - certainly running a serious risk of running out of fuel, probably sucking all sorts of gunge out to the bottom of the tank and into your engine and, probably, not even possible since the dip tube probably does not get close enough to the bottom of the tank. I think that the concensus from Belgium - where they have already done this - is that it takes at least three cycles of running it almost empty, then filling up almost completely to get there."

The point they seem to be pursuing is that it is forbidden to use any marker in the fuel used in leisure marine propulsion units so any level that is detectable and it does not therefore need to be quantifiable is breaking the law which they seem happy to enforce.

 

[Heckler]

Douglas Adams sums it up nicely.....
....There is one word that is still beyond the pale.The concept it embodies is so revolting that the publication or broadcast of the word is utterly forbidden in all parts of the galaxy except one-where they don't know what it means.
That word is "Belgium" .

Excellent! when I dared to call them stupid etc I was accused of not liking foreigners yaddy yaddy! Market forces will prevail! Going to love it when we are finally out, we will then be the same as any visiting boat, commercial vessel etc, will they try fining them as well?
All that is bad about EU is embodied in the actions of the fools from that country!
Stu

 

[Angele]

OK - found it :

"Well, at least this bit is clearly defined - you need to dilute 75:1 with white diesel to get below the threshold - so it really is not feasible to do it in even two steps with a 30 gallon tank - you would need to run it down to less than half a gallon - certainly running a serious risk of running out of fuel, probably sucking all sorts of gunge out to the bottom of the tank and into your engine and, probably, not even possible since the dip tube probably does not get close enough to the bottom of the tank. I think that the concensus from Belgium - where they have already done this - is that it takes at least three cycles of running it almost empty, then filling up almost completely to get there."

I also noted down the info from a thread on here back in 2012. It said:

Min dye concentration required in red diesel = 6 mg per litre.
Max permitted dye concentration in red diesel = 9 mg per litre.
Max permitted concentration below which the UK AUTHORITIES will deem diesel to be white = 0.12 mg per litre.

So, as maby says, a dilution factor of 75:1 is ok here in the UK. (Or perhaps only 50:1 if at the lower end to start with, but how would you know?)

No idea whether the Belgians are using the same threshold (or, indeed any specific level if all they are doing is a visual inspection).

 

[Fr J Hackett]

I also noted down the info from a thread on here back in 2012. It said:

Min dye concentration required in red diesel = 6 mg per litre.
Max permitted dye concentration in red diesel = 9 mg per litre.
Max permitted concentration below which the UK AUTHORITIES will deem diesel to be white = 0.12 mg per litre.

So, as maby says, a dilution factor of 75:1 is ok here in the UK. (Or perhaps only 50:1 if at the lower end to start with, but how would you know?)

No idea whether the Belgians are using the same threshold (or, indeed any specific level if all they are doing is a visual inspection).

The appear to be enforcing the directive that no leisure vessel can use fuel with a dye in it so any level is unacceptable.

 

[Angele]

The appear to be enforcing the directive that no leisure vessel can use fuel with a dye in it so any level is unacceptable.

But, if they aren't actually doing a quantitative chemical analysis (and I haven't seen any report from victims saying that had to wait to find out if they were going to be fined while a sample was put through a spectrometer) then all they are doing is a visual check and that is impossible to identify infinitesimally small quantities of the dye. So, the threshold cannot be zero.

Anyone ever performed their own experiment mixing red and white to see at what concentration it starts to look pinkish to the naked eye?

 

[Heckler]

But, if they aren't actually doing a quantitative chemical analysis (and I haven't seen any report from victims saying that had to wait to find out if they were going to be fined while a sample was put through a spectrometer) then all they are doing is a visual check and that is impossible to identify infinitesimally small quantities of the dye. So, the threshold cannot be zero.

Anyone ever performed their own experiment mixing red and white to see at what concentration it starts to look pinkish to the naked eye?

Its the man with a gun and a uniform syndrome! I tell you what, they would have had to put me in gaol because I wouldnt have paid! Lots of noise and calls for the embassy plus threats of the media I suspect would make them think again!
Stu

 

[longjohnsilver]

Excellent! when I dared to call them stupid etc I was accused of not liking foreigners yaddy yaddy! Market forces will prevail! Going to love it when we are finally out, we will then be the same as any visiting boat, commercial vessel etc, will they try fining them as well?
All that is bad about EU is embodied in the actions of the fools from that country!
Stu

I agree that what they are doing is stupid, but I can't see how Brexit will help, surely they will still fine you after Brexit has happened if you have any trace of red diesel in your tank.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

But, if they aren't actually doing a quantitative chemical analysis (and I haven't seen any report from victims saying that had to wait to find out if they were going to be fined while a sample was put through a spectrometer) then all they are doing is a visual check and that is impossible to identify infinitesimally small quantities of the dye. So, the threshold cannot be zero.

Anyone ever performed their own experiment mixing red and white to see at what concentration it starts to look pinkish to the naked eye?

It doesn't need to be quantitative just to show that there is dye in the fuel.

 

[Champagne Murphy]

Its the man with a gun and a uniform syndrome! I tell you what, they would have had to put me in gaol because I wouldnt have paid! Lots of noise and calls for the embassy plus threats of the media I suspect would make them think again!
Stu

They'd just confiscate the boat. Cheap for them, expensive for you.

 

[awol]

Its the man with a gun and a uniform syndrome! I tell you what, they would have had to put me in gaol because I wouldnt have paid! Lots of noise and calls for the embassy plus threats of the media I suspect would make them think again!
Stu

Please, please go to Belgium with red diesel in your tank. I doubt they would give you access to t'internet in their pokey so relief for all. Watch out for those slippy court-room steps, can cause all sort of injuries to those who know best.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

I agree that what they are doing is stupid, but I can't see how Brexit will help, surely they will still fine you after Brexit has happened if you have any trace of red diesel in your tank.

That assumes they ignore both international convention in not restricting passage through their waters and the unwritten convention that states do not interfere in the taxation regulations of other states. As by that time the UK will not be a member of the EU and subject to the no dye regulation.

 

[sailorman]

Why start yet ANOTHER Friggin red debate thread

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Why start yet ANOTHER Friggin red debate thread

Won't me guv

 

[jdc]

The appear to be enforcing the directive that no leisure vessel can use fuel with a dye in it so any level is unacceptable.

But (as you're probably only too well aware!) there is no such EU directive! There are two directives posibly relevant:

1. COUNCIL DIRECTIVE 2003/96/EC, see http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2003:283:0051:0070:EN:PDF which does not mention red (aka 'marked') fuel at all. It merely states that all fuel used for propulsion must be taxed at at least 330 euros per 1000 litres. I believe that the UK is fully compliant with this (we pay at least this much tax on every litre used for propulsion, and take receipts with us to prove it).

2. COUNCIL DIRECTIVE 95/60/EC (which pre-dates the above one by ~8 years), see http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:31995L0060&from=EN which requires member states to add die to all non-taxed fuel. Interestingly it's silent about adding die to taxed fuel, but in any case says Member States may allow exceptions to the application of the fiscal marker provided for in paragraph 1 on grounds of public health or safety or for other technical reasons, provided they take appropriate fiscal supervision measures. As I understand it the UK argues that (i) the directive says nothing about adding die to taked fuel, and (ii) due to our long coastline and variety of small ports in such places at the NW of Scotland, we do have adequate technical reasons to continue to allow yachts to use marked fuel, provided that duty has been paid as per directive 2003/96/EC.

Now just because these are EU directives doesn't mean they have any power. They have to be enacted into national law to take effect, andI imagine that all states have done so, certainly both the UK and Belgium. So to take action under any directive a nation state has to apply its own law. What would be really useful in this case would be to get a copy of the actual act of (Belgian) parliarment, to see whetehr they have drafted it in contravention of the relevant EU directive,or, more likely, some officials have decided to interpret it in a manner which is stricter than the EU directive: it's hard to see how national law in one state can cover the directive's clause allowing technical reasons until such time as there has been a ruling in the ECJ. And there hasn't yet been one, so it's my assertion that Belgium is itself in breach of the EU directive.

But, if I may suggest, humphing about the EU and how dreadful it is is most unliekly to lead to any resolution at all, let alone one we'd be happy with. But fighting back with counter-claim that Belgium is acting in breach of EU directives on free movement of people and services, and additionally is acting in breach of IMO agreements on shipping, is, imho, much more likely to prove fruitful.