Belgium Again!

[Giblets]

CA link if it hasn't been posted already. They've blown it this time..

https://www.theca.org.uk/rats/red_diesel_use_in_EU

If I was a Belgian Customs officer I don't think I would be taking too much notice of a document that looks like it has been knocked up on a word processor with no official letterhead or signature of the writer.

 

[dom]

Thankfully Belgium has a short easily-missable coastline and it’s hardly unmissable!

 

[Heckler]

Assurances were given that a blind eye would be turned pending a final EU court ruling.
That ruling has now been made and the UK was held to be in the wrong.

Like it or not, but whilst we are still EU members we have to abide by EU law.
If another EU country now actively enforces EU law, what the **** is the ****ing problem?

And as has been stated many times before, it was never about whether 60/40 or 100% tax, it was about the COLOUR of our diesel.

Somewhere there is a document that says that the Belgium authorities will allow red if receipts are available for 100% duty paid on it. Another sly, on the face of it, concession but in real life it doesnt happen. Any one who visits that silly little non country (split by language issues!) that cant even form a govt and leave it to officials to run, well what can you say?

 

[Old Harry]

Somewhere there is a document that says that the Belgium authorities will allow red if receipts are available for 100% duty paid on it. Another sly, on the face of it, concession but in real life it doesnt happen. Any one who visits that silly little non country (split by language issues!) that cant even form a govt and leave it to officials to run, well what can you say?

Mebe we could learn how they manage without a government, Oh we have one already that cant govern

 

[JumbleDuck]

Boats move around the planet and fuel can be marked at any location, I have no idea what colour the fuel is in Tunisia, Turkey, Montenegro, Gibraltar or the Channel Islands. What I do know it is is quite legal to fill up in these places. It is also a nonsense to be fined for entering the EU with fuel purchased from these places.

It is quite legal to buy cannabis when your boat is in the Netherlands, but that doesn't mean you legally can bring it back to the UK with you.

That said, I agree that using the presence of dye is a bit of a coarse tool, particularly since the same dye could well be in legally bought fuel from elsewhere.

 

[Heckler]

Mebe we could learn how they manage without a government, Oh we have one already that cant govern

Correct, run by unelected officials such as the Ollie

 

[JumbleDuck]

Fixed penalty. The owner was quite shocked and upset, left Nieuwport immediately.

In that case, perhaps it was an uninformed or over-officious customs official and no presecution, as promised, would have followed if the owner had not accepted the fixed penalty.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

In that case, perhaps it was an uninformed or over-officious customs official and no presecution, as promised, would have followed if the owner had not accepted the fixed penalty.

His risk would have been the impounding of his boat, he would need to be very bloody minded and have big cojones and at the end of the day when it went to the ECJ the ruling would be against him as it is contrary to the EU directive to have coloured diesel in the tanks of a private leisure vessel for propulsion.

 

[Poignard]

. Any one who visits that silly little non country (split by language issues!)

Wales, do you mean?

And who are you to tell people what countries they ought not to visit?

 

[Tomahawk]

On a broader issue I think the Union rule about fuel duty is a travesty.

Consider shipping a container across the Union. If you put it on a lorry, the haulier pays fuel duty. But if you put it on a barge .. the shipping company doesn't pay fuel duty as it's commercial shipping. Yet the container is still the same and is being moved across Europe.

 

[JumbleDuck]

His risk would have been the impounding of his boat, he would need to be very bloody minded and have big cojones and at the end of the day when it went to the ECJ the ruling would be against him as it is contrary to the EU directive to have coloured diesel in the tanks of a private leisure vessel for propulsion.

I think you are confusing your European courts. The European Court of Justice rules on the application of EU Law by nations and is not an appeal court for national court decisions. The European Court of Human Rights can be an appeal court, but nobody has (yet) claimed that the red diesel business has any human rights implications.

My point is therefore that we cannot assume from this that the Belgian guarantee of "no prosecutions" is over, since it seems that nobody was prosecuted. Of course that leaves open the possibility that the ambassador said "of course we can still impose fixed penalties" under his breath, but my money here is on "over-zealous official".

 

[JumbleDuck]

Consider shipping a container across the Union. If you put it on a lorry, the haulier pays fuel duty. But if you put it on a barge .. the shipping company doesn't pay fuel duty as it's commercial shipping. Yet the container is still the same and is being moved across Europe.

According to HMRC, fuel duty is only rebated for sea voyages; inland waterways are explicitly excluded. Are you sure that's different in the rest (for now) of Europe?

 

[Fr J Hackett]

I think you are confusing your European courts. The European Court of Justice rules on the application of EU Law by nations and is not an appeal court for national court decisions. The European Court of Human Rights can be an appeal court, but nobody has (yet) claimed that the red diesel business has any human rights implications.

My point is therefore that we cannot assume from this that the Belgian guarantee of "no prosecutions" is over, since it seems that nobody was prosecuted. Of course that leaves open the possibility that the ambassador said "of course we can still impose fixed penalties" under his breath, but my money here is on "over-zealous official".

Yes I am but he would undoubtably loose when he took it to the Belgian courts who would uphold EU legislation and back their customs officer who was acting within the law. So he would still be a brave and foolhardy person to challenge the fine.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Yes I am but he would undoubtably loose when he took it to the Belgian courts who would uphold EU legislation and back their customs officer who was acting within the law.

If it went to court. Remember, the Belgians have said that it wouldn't. Incidentally, since this all arises from an EU Directive, and not a Regulation, it's Belgian Law which matters, not "EU legislation".

So he would still be a brave and foolhardy person to challenge the fine.

It would take a certain amount of nerve, I agree.

 

[vyv_cox]

Following questions from the CA's RATS team the Belgian authorities have admitted that they were mistaken and the fine has been repaid.

 

[GHA]

Following questions from the CA's RATS team the Belgian authorities have admitted that they were mistaken and the fine has been repaid.

That was quick. Well done CA.
They might get away with it then, so who would still go?

 

[Old Harry]

Following questions from the CA's RATS team the Belgian authorities have admitted that they were mistaken and the fine has been repaid.

Good news indeed, well done The CA

 

[Stork_III]

Apart from the unfortunate chap who was fined €500, it’s the Belgian marinas and businesses who will be the losers. I was contemplating taking my boat that way, but with over 3000 litres of red in my tanks it’s most definitely on my personal black list.

It’s a real shame, as all the Belgians I know are delightful people.

Without the proper receipts, the Dutch Customs will charge 4.50 Euro/l of Tank Capacity. 3000x4.50 is a lot of Euros.

 

[GTom]

Without the proper receipts, the Dutch Customs will charge 4.50 Euro/l of Tank Capacity. 3000x4.50 is a lot of Euros.

Do the Dutch care, if the stuff is pink/brown/uranium-glowing or just the tax paid status? Latter is easy, I refill with white and bring the receipt - former needs cleaning or many refills.

 

[dom]

4

......so who would still go?

“Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me!”