Belated Logbook Entries

[Clem]

As we all know, a logbook is a legal document. But what happens, when in international waters events are entered belatedly? In this specific case, the person in charge delayed to enter the death of the skipper, although he noted less important events. In the logbook, he admitted by his signature that the skipper had died three days earlier. I always thought that events must be entered the day they happened. Furthermore, it is evident that this person imitated the handwriting of the skipper in the logbook days before the alleged death of the skipper.

Can this, particularly the belated entry be regarded as falsification of documents?



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[BrendanS]

Are we tallking about the sad demise of a YM type, blue ensign flying buffer such as Jimi, Twister Ken,. or such like, , or the very sad demise of Vincent flying the flag of defeat at the hands of a marina and uncaring forum?

Such details matter. ans who towed them out that far?

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[MainlySteam]

<<<I always thought that events must be entered the day they happened>>>

That would be a silly requirement - if it was a requirement one would not want to go doing anything at 23:59:55 hours that should be entered in the log would one? Also, what day would you use if you kept your log in UT but were sailing in Oz.

For pleasure vessels I doubt if there are many, if any places where a log is a legal document - if one is kept it can be used as evidence, but there is no legal requirement to keep one. If there was a legal requirement then most pleasure vessel owners would be breaking the law regularly - the vast majority do not keep a log, and those that do generally only do so casually.

I was unaware there were any laws anywhere about imitating the writing of another person - I hope mine doesn't look like George Bush's or someone important, could be in a lot of trouble. Sounds to me as if you are on some sort of personal mission over something, maybe you should explain.

John

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[Boathook]

Not to sure what rules apply in Australia or to commercial vessels but for the private boat in the uk the log book is not compulsary (yet) though it could be used in evidence if you had a serious accident and filled one out. Personaly I fill out a log book for each trip if only to keep a record of how much I have sailed over the years. I would not of thought that copying someones hand writting is illegal until you try to pass it of as someone elses rather than your own. Writting the log a day after the event I would of thought being ok as long as it is factual. The other way of looking at it is who could tell that it was a belated entry.
The ultimate way to find out; is to consult lawyers in the country the boat stopped at and in the country it is 'flagged' / registered.
These are only my opinions and I am not a lawyer nor employed by them !

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[jamesjermain]

Compulsory log books

Are we talking commercial vessel or private yacht here? The law is probably quite different for the two categories.

Now that private yacht skippers are required to have evidence of passage planning for coastal and offshore passages, I think is can be assumed that the complete absence of log entries for a passage like this could be construed as illegal. However, at least for British flagged yachts, there is no legal requirement to keep a fully detailed, up to date log. It is a little known fact, though, that there is a legal requirement to keep a radio log if you are a qualified radio operator (even just for VHF)

Log entries can be made after the event but they should be in chronological order. Since this is clearly not the case here the log could not be described as a true record of the passage. Nevertheless, I don't think this log book could be called falsified unless there is evidence of an intent to deceive. I can understand the crew being in a state of shock and not being able to commit the terrible news to paper until some time later. Provided this was made clear in the entry and there is no question of foul play, I don't see that any harm has been done. What might have been awkward would have been if the vessel had been boarded after the skipper's death and before the entry had been made.

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[RS123]

Re: Compulsory log books

James, could you please explain further re: the radio log? I have recently completed my SRC course and no such mention was made..... What are the requirements?

Thanks

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[Peppermint]

Re: All log entries

are dislocated in time from the reported event. It would seem careless to overlook a death for several days but provided no intent to deceive comes into the picture I doubt that it creates a problem.

On passage I rarely keep a log unless I've got the crew operating in watches. For day trips I scribble everything that occurs on the chart and make up the log on arrival or even later.

I have never kept, or sailed on board a yacht commercial or private that kept a radio log. Though I'm told that the Combined Services boats do so.

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[circumnavigation]

Re: Compulsory log books

James, very much compulsory. I nearly lost me life in March and now there are civil and criminal proceedings against a boat yard for criminal negligence. In March this year, having just collected my boat after a £70,000 refit, I was subjected to electrocution because of water entering the main electrical panel box: 220, 24 and 12 volts short circuiting on a steel ketch, just having been prepared for a circumnavigation.

In evidence, I had to supply the details of the ship's log and the chart information, but not just to the loss adjuster, but to the Court also. As a seasoned yachtmaster and with a professional navigational background, the requirements were quite normal to supply. I am sure that there are many out there that are not tuned in to what is and will be required of them in the months that follow. Injured, as I was, with damages that will be necessary to cover the uninsured losses, it is no wonder that underwriters are looking very closely at the incidents that seem to be esculating in the claims arena.

circumnavigation

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[circumnavigation]

Re: Compulsory log books

On the LRC course it is part of the syllabus and the exam.

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[MainlySteam]

Re: Compulsory log books

It would be an unusual jurisdiction that required the keeping of a logbook by law for pleasure vessels. It is correct that it is useful to have one if one has an accident or involved in any other event that results in a challenge, all assuming that if the log existed it was supporting of ones own case. If it did not support your case then one might be better off without it if one was going to run a defence.

As James says, in some jurisdictions it is a requirement to plan (it is an international requirement, but the legislation of the flag state overides that) but I do not think there has to be any evidence of having kept to the plan, but perhaps evidence if the plan changes (delay, change of destination, etc) that one has then replanned. That may or may not be in a log - there is no requirement that I am aware of that it has to be so.

I would think that in law, a pleasure vessel's logbook would be treated very much as a land person's diary would be. There is no compulsion to keep one, you can write in it what you want even to the point of fantasy, and if you are challenged in law for some event (eg a murder) the diary may or may not be useful as evidence, say to assist in establishing an alibi. If the diary was fanciful, then it would be discarded as unreliable, but the fact that it was would not be an offence. I would expect that in the case of a pleasure vessel's log being fanciful it would be treated in the same way.

NB I am not saying one should not keep a log on a pleasure vessel, it may prove to be useful. Just that there is no requirement to in most jurisdictions (I know of no important ones).

Again, for a radio log, I cannot speak authoritively for the UK, but for pleasure vessels there is normally no requirement to and it is generally regarded as uneccessary. It would seem sensible to enter any Mayday or Urgency alert received, and which directly involved ones own vessel (eg you relayed the Mayday or otherwise took some action) in the vessels navigation log. While there are requirements for radio logkeeping on commercial vessels they are usually only applied for important communications such as Safety or Urgency, or radio equipment malfunction (imagine a berthing ship, pilot and tugs all logging their communications during the berthing process - it doesn't happen).

John

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[BrianJ]

Clem.. cannot answer your question regarding the particular case, however cannot see a problem keeping a log . We, when in international waters or coastal waters , enter the log at every change of watch.. sometimes that is 2 hour period.However I am not sure about the circumstances regarding your case, but I have an accident report form and a search plan form which would both have to be handed to the authorities ,if something serious happened...
( you can hava a copy of both if you want them ... just send me a PM ( no not Simon Crean )
BrianJ

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[rich]

It's not really that amusing, at the time it was a serious matter.......
I was doing occasional skippering trips for an elderly gentleman who had been an active politician and was also very religious. He was by now in his eighties and in a wheelchair, so I would take the boat to France or UK (from Jersey) and then he would meet me there and have a little cruise, usually with some of his family on board. However this particular time he insisted he wanted to come with me to England and sail up the Thames, and then moor outside the Houses of Parliament.
I was really worried about the trip being too much for him and asked his secretary what I should do if he passed away on board.
she told me to seal him in the aft-cabin , not tell anyone, and go straight to the nearest British port and then report to the police, but definately not to a French port as they didn't want the French to get their hands on him.
Fortunately he backed out of the trip and met me instead on the pontoon outside the H of P with an armed police escort.
He died a couple of years later, fortunately not on board.



<hr width=100% size=1>rich ) <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.jersey-harbours.com>http://www.jersey-harbours.com</A>

 

[rich]

I know it's still possible in Jersey to be buried at sea because an old fisherman I knew was buried recently (not his ashes, the whole lot).....however, a word of warning:
Several years ago a friend's father was buried at sea, but due to the tides and the relatively shallow waters round here, he popped up on the Normandy coast a couple of weeks later. His body was brought back to Jersey and solemnly re-buried at sea, only for the same thing to happen again. By this time the French authorities had had enough, so he was promptly bunged into the nearest French graveyard with the minimum of ceremony, the only thing is no-one had the heart to tell his widow, so to this day she thinks he was buried at sea.


<hr width=100% size=1>rich ) <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.jersey-harbours.com>http://www.jersey-harbours.com</A>

 

[Clem]

Yes, foul play was involved. The skipper was killed by someone of his crew. Allegedly it happened in the middle of the Atlantic. The skipper's body was thrown overboard. There was no ceremony. The person in charge immitated the skippers handwriting presumably to imply that the skipper was well and alive, when in reality he was already dead.

For the prosecutor, it was all to much, so the case ended up in the TOO HARD BASKET, meaning the file was closed. The perpetrator (s) walked free.


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[circumnavigation]

Re: Compulsory log books

Thanks for your comments. This is not taking place in the UK.

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[MainlySteam]

Re: Compulsory log books

Hi Martin

I just had a look on your site to see if any mention where, but could not see any reference. I could guess a likely place fairly close to the UK that is real big on paperwork for even trivial things but I may be wrong.

However, as a British registered vessel (as your site says you are) you are only obliged to follow the logging requirements of your UK flag nation, not those of whatever nation's waters you sail in (as long as the waters are not inland waters).

Good luck

John

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[circumnavigation]

Life or Death!

Hello John:

Katoema is based in France, but as I am not resident in the EU and live in a UK Overseas Dependency, International Law states that the UK can register a vessel through Cardiff alone. However, my Part One registration shows my address, behind this is the address of my UK lawyers.

Passage planning and keeping an up-to-date log book, for many mariners, comes second nature as a matter of security for the safety of both the vessel and her crew. In the incident that you have read from the pages of the website, I am obliged to limit what is said as subjudicy comes in to play here. The information supplied to both my insurers and the Court (there are criminal and civil processes currently taking place), was supplied directly from the passage plan and the log. Information on location, tides and weather were an important part of this, in order for the parties concerned to understand what was taking place and the conditions that were being experienced at the time.

Information supplied also covered the communications between my vessel and the UK Coastguard and that of the French CROSS and the important coordination between the two countries. After all said and done what has been shown is that it is important to keep a log of all activities on board.

I was extremely fortunate that this incident took place in coastal waters, with good communications, along with the swift action of the French SNSM. Within minutes of being brought into Roscoff, Pantaenius, my insurers, had contacted their representative surveyor to contact me. What was found on a preliminary check was sufficient for the surveyor to inform the French Authorities that life was placed at risk from "negligent" workmanship. The French do take these things very seriously, with all concerned having the same opinion: if this incident had taken place on the Atlantic crossing, for example, Katoema would have been lost and the reasons behind it would never have been known. With no electrics, it is possible that, even with an EPIRB, the liferaft may never have been found. For these reasons alone the passage plan and log book played a very important part in what happened, because a very dry vessel became waterlogged with important quantities of water entering her. Had she been holed as well as signs of water coming through the deckhead, to short circuit a steel vessel with 220, 24 and 12 volt systems? This week it had been proven, by the Court flooding the deck under pressure, that the sole entrance for such a vast quantity of water was a dorade that had not been sealed around the tube.

For the cost of a few Euros for sealant, Katoema now faces a further 4 months of repairs that includes complete rewiring and that new electronics and communications equipment which was part of the recently finished £70K refit has to be replaced again.

I hope that this narrative enables readers to understood in part why documentation was requested in this case. Katoema had just completed a major refit to undertake a circumnavigation. Under the contract the shipyard had a contractural obligation to ensure that Katoema was prepared and in the condition that would be required for such an undertaking. Within hours of taking possession of her, both the vessel and my life was placed at risk. Under French law the MD of the company concerned can go to prison for this.

Reading all these forums of other readers having problems with faulty workmanship or equipment, where does that leave them if it placed their vessel and life at risk. Each country does have its own regulations, sometimes being shown as more officious than others to those not used to them. It is necessary to respect what is being asked from you, even if you feel it is over the top.

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[MainlySteam]

Re: Life or Death!

Thanks for the explanation Martin.

I had taken a guess at it being in France, but I have to say that despite my comments regarding a lot of paperwork there I have a very high regard for their abilities - that opinion gained from many trips backwards and forwards from here in NZ associated with various projects. I trust that your boat problem gets remedied quickly.

Despite my comments on the legal situation with logs I do believe it is prudent to keep one on a boat of more than runabout/day sailer size, in at least rudimentary form if cruising domestically, and in more detail including non navigation matters such as to do with crew, times border authorities contacted, etc when international. Also, as you say, if one is asked to produce ones log by the state being visited then if one has a log one best produce it.

Regards

John

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