Beginers Advice - Yachtmaster certification

[Tranona]

Can I ask about catamarans in response to this, and I'm aware I'm straying from my own topic here so perhaps I should move this topic if the moderators wish but;
I'm having a parrallel discussion with a friend who keeps mentioning that if I wish to sail for an extended period (this will be my primary residence for at least a year, the London place will be let out for some living expenses) with good living conditions I should consider a cat. perhaps something like a Lagoon 50 or a Lagoon 56 which are supposedly easier to sail and shorter boats with the same comfort level.

Is it particularly hard or expensive to find marinas for this class of yacht?

A

Cats are increasingly popular in the Caribbean, but less so in the Med. Berthing costs in the Med are very high because they are often charged by the area occupied rather than the length. Cats major on space, both inside and out for large numbers of people to live harmoniously in hot climates. Most of the boats you see are specifically built for the charter market essentially as big bathing platforms for holiday making. Does not mean that they are not capable of voyaging, but monos are still much more common.

As to size - modern handling sytems have made it possible to handle larger boats. However the big downside to a large boat is the logistics required to keep their complex systems running. When you read accounts of peoples' voyages with such boats they are often a story of a continuous battle with the electrics, navigation equipment, domestic systems, watermakers, toilets and so on - rarely problems with the basic sailing bit of the boat.

 

[r_h]

Perhaps a reason some people here have railed against the idea of a 60-footer is that sometimes the pleasure of long-term sailing is in the escape it provides. As well as the cost and weight of a boat increasing as a cubic function of its length, in most cases that’s also true of the complexity of the boat. And there’s no escaping the fact that a large and complex boat will need a lot of maintenance.

Most owners of 60+ft boats solve that by engaging paid crew. Others base the boat in a single port where such skills are readily available, which can work well for holiday sailing of up to a month or so at a time. Equally some owners accept that they need to learn maintenance skills, and spend a considerable amount of time looking after their vessel and its systems.

From a personal perspective, part of getting away on a boat is to escape hassle and difficulties – for me being a slave to the boat would ruin the experience I get from my own boat, so I’m really happy to have a very simple 30-footer. And, although my boat may not look flash, I can still swim in the same bays, visit the same picturesque ports, and eat in the same restaurants as the owners of 120ft superyachts.

That’s not to say anyone else should follow my route, but don’t automatically buy a large yacht by default just because you can afford it. On the other hand, if you’ve looked into the alternatives and rejected them, you can buy the big boat (whether it's 60, 90 or 150ft) with confidence, knowing it's the right thing for the purpose you have in mind.

 

[prv]

My ambition is to sail round Britain in a hunter horizon 26 and when i tell people they think i'm mad and on a suicide mission.

Don't see why - a chap sailed round Britain last year in a similar boat to mine (essentially the gaff cutter version where mine is a gaff yawl). That's 24'6". He had the odd scary moment as you might expect, but nothing really serious. Your boat is not only bigger but, if I'm honest, probably a better sailer too.

Pete

 

[Deleted member 36384]

At 60 ft LOA you will have a great home and good boat if you choose sensibly. Sailing is easy and you don't have to learn in a 60 ft boat.

If you have the cash then buy the 60 ft boat and book yourself on a series of RYA courses, for example, then pay for some own boat tuition. There are good instructors and schools on the South Coast who will be happy to show you how to handle a larger boat.

Forget about astro Navigation and go for GPS but learn how to use the thing properly.

Sounds great, go for it. Remember thought that the running costs can be very high on a boat that size, so factor that into your economics.

 

[PeterR]

I've sailed boats in the 60ft region, but only with full crews.

Funnily parking is not much of an issue, other than cost. You either find an alongside berth, go stern to or you anchor off, there is no messing about trying to get into tight pontoon fingers.

You can easily get all the kit to cope with a boat that size two up or even single-handed but my worry would be what I would do if those systems failed. If your anchor windlass fails in a boat that size in any depth of water you will never lift the deadweight of anchor and chain. If your sail roller systems fail in any sort of wind wrestling a big sail down onto the deck is not for the faint hearted. What is difficult but possible on a 40-45 foot boat becomes nigh on impossible at 60 foot when short-handed.

If you can afford it and and have at least a couple of beefy friends go as big as you like, otherwise I would stay below 50 feet.

 

[deuc02]

Got to disagree with most of the above. Lots of messing about with tight finger pontoons (especially on the south coast) whether you're in a 30ft or 60ft boat. Seem to remember that getting in and out of berths is covered pretty well in day skipper practical. The theory is the same whatever the boat size, just different boats have different characteristics which you quickly learn and get used to

If your windlass fails then you can manually wind in the anchor (great things gears). In the same vein if your powered furling fails then you have manual override. On older powered furlers with not much in the way of a worm gear drive then more than 2 people is better but to be honest all of the newer units utilise worm gears so you can wind em in with some air in the sail to stop the sheets flogging about.

Sure the sails are bigger etc but you will generally also have a much stronger rig and probably a stronger overall boat.

 

[William_H]

Sabatical

There are far better ways to see the world and (spend your money) than buying a boat and circumnavigating the world. The big voyage is only for those who absolutely must do it for the challenge or bragging rights etc.
Yacht charter is so good in so many places around the world. And it is still cheaper than owning your own boat. Or you could go to a place and if you like it buy a small boat and cruise then sell it again.
Now I am a bit one eyed about Australia and admittedly the UK to dollar rate is horrible compared to what it used to be. but... you could go to Queensland in the middle of the year for wonderful charter sailing then when you have had enough of that buy or rent a 4X4 camper and tour the wilderness of the north of Australia. By about October you migrate south to the wildflowers in South West Australia then to Melbourne and Sydney for the summer. Again chartering boats if you want. Doing this route you would join the Grey Nomads. Huge numbers of retired couples with 4X4 and caravan. At the right time 4 out every 5 vehicles on the road is identifiably Grey Nomads.
That is just an example of what you can do with as much sailing as you want but flexibility and no worries. You could do Africa or SE Asia perhaps with some security worries and perhaps less bare boat charter.
Call in and visit we are on the bottom left hand corner of Australia.
good luck olewill

 

[prv]

Can't really understand the anti 60ft brigade on here. Don't remember magnum getting the why when he plumped for a CNB 60.

He did, actually. His first posts were somewhat similar to the OP's here, and the reaction wasn't all that different.

Pete

 

[snowleopard]

Most boat owners consider their own boats the right size or would prefer something a little bit bigger. I am different - my boat (40 ft cat) is too big! It was built for ocean cruising and Caribbean anchorages and is an embarrassment in European harbours. Inside there is more space than we need, we have only had all 4 cabins occupied once since returning from the Caribbean. It's great out at sea where size makes for comfort and speed but most cruises are 80% or more in port and 20% at sea.

A 50 ft cat is a BIG beast and can be a nightmare to moor so you will spend a lot of time anchored outside harbours while smaller boats are on walk-ashore pontoons. I manage my rig singlehanded but when I helped a friend with the 55 ft model It was plain that the extra power of the rig meant it was a struggle for 2 in any strength of wind.

So what does a really big boat give you?

• Luxurious accommodation
• Room for lots of guests
• More comfortable motion at sea
• Faster passages
• Crumpet-pulling power

And the down sides?

• Cost - double the costs for every extra 10 ft: Purchase price, maintenance, mooring, fuel
• Deeper draft so restricted access to some harbours and anchorages
• Too big for many harbours and marinas
• Heavy gear so more crew needed
• Harder to handle and bigger bills when you get it wrong
• Social exclusion - many people will assume you are a snob and avoid you

 

[PeterR]

Got to disagree with most of the above. Lots of messing about with tight finger pontoons (especially on the south coast) whether you're in a 30ft or 60ft boat. Seem to remember that getting in and out of berths is covered pretty well in day skipper practical. The theory is the same whatever the boat size, just different boats have different characteristics which you quickly learn and get used to

If your windlass fails then you can manually wind in the anchor (great things gears). In the same vein if your powered furling fails then you have manual override. On older powered furlers with not much in the way of a worm gear drive then more than 2 people is better but to be honest all of the newer units utilise worm gears so you can wind em in with some air in the sail to stop the sheets flogging about.

Sure the sails are bigger etc but you will generally also have a much stronger rig and probably a stronger overall boat.

If you have lots of experience on 60 footers I must defer. I have only logged about 6000 miles on such boats. In that time I never had to resort to inside finger berths. Hammerheads yes, but never inside. Perhaps if you stick to the South Coast of UK you might have a point but I thought the object of the OP was to go globe trotting.

Interesting comment on gears and windlasses. Only problem is I’ve never come across a windlass where the emergency manual lift had any gearing. The gears connect the motor to the main shaft and that’s it. The only mechanical advantage you have in manual is the ratio of the length of your handle to the radius of the gypsy. That will get you out of trouble in shallow water but on these boats you are looking at a dead lift of 200+ kg when the anchor breaks out in deeper water. Perhaps that’s why many modern windlasses do not have any manual function at all.

I had to retrieve an anchor manually when anchored in deep water off Flores in the Azores, it took 10 of us to haul it in.

I was not talking about winching in sails manually if the electrics fail. I was talking about the difficulty of getting the sails down if the whole issue jams up with the sail out. Unlikely, with modern foresails but I’ve had roller reefing mainsails jam solid on 3 occasions on 3 different boats.

Gear is very reliable these days and there is a good chance you could sail for thousands of miles with no real problems on a big boat but when things do go wrong they really go wrong and I was just making the point that they can be very difficult to sort out short-handed. Really big boats are great if you are sailing with a few friends but IMHO, for a couple, the disadvantages outweigh the advantages.

 

[Ubergeekian]

There is no such thing as a "Yachtmaster Offshore course".

Apart from this one.

 

[Csail]

Hi There,
I'm planning to buy an ocean going cruising yacht (sail) around 60ft next year and plan to sail the world. It's something of a dream I've always had.

I used to sail a lot as a kid but it's mostly gone now and I wanted to get answers from the experts:

Do I need a full Yachmaster qualification? It seems like a lot of work and investment, do I need it, will it bring my insurance down by as much as it costs?

Thanks very much

Cost is **** all if your buying a 60' yacht and swanning off round the world.....i would get a reallity cert first.

 

[prv]

Perhaps that’s why many modern windlasses do not have any manual function at all.

Really? Blimey. I don't think I could bring myself to buy such a thing.

Pete

 

[Little Rascal]

amcl - you might find this site interesting: www.morganscloud.com

 

[vyv_cox]

Really? Blimey. I don't think I could bring myself to buy such a thing.

Pete

If mine is anything to go by, even when there is a manual function it is almost impossible to use effectively. The winch handle socket on mine is so shallow that it takes real concentration to rotate the gypsy without the handle slipping out. Not a viable option IMHO.

 

[scotty123]

I would start by doing a RYA competant crew course which is a week on board with an experienced skipper. That will give you a good idea of what yachting is all about and also an idea of the practicalities of running a boat. You will find that something much smaller than a 60 footer is a better bet for long distance cruising. BTW I think you would need at least skipper a 3 crew for a large tacht.

Why is something much smaller than a 60 footer a better bet for long distance cruising?

 

[scotty123]

Apart from this one.

Its a Yachtmaster Offshore 'Preparation' Course, since there is no such thing as a YM Offshore Practical Course.

 

[scotty123]

A 60 foot yacht is at the bigger end of the spectrum. To put it in some kind of perspective, it's a bit like saying that you did some flying when younger and want to be able to pilot a 747. If this is your dream and you have the time and finances to realise it - you should definitely go for it.

However, as with all these things it probably makes sense to realise your dream in a series of steps. Whilst you don't need a YM qualification, it would make some sense to do some training. A coastal skipper qualification is a good start, and should take you about 6 weeks including the theory. There are a few organisations that will do a fast track coastal skipper in 8 weeks, including First Aid, basic powerboat handling (RYA level 2) and s diesel engine maintenance course - all very useful stuff.

The other thing to bear in mind with a 60 footer is that you will find yourself limited (by length and draft) in the places you can visit. Quite a few marinas would struggle to accommodate a boat of this length and others would appreciate some prior notice of your arrival.

"There are a few organisations that will do a fast track coastal skipper in 8 weeks,"

name them pls, since the pre-exam requirements seem to suggest much more experience than 8 weeks.

"Pre-exam requirements:

•Radio Operator's Qualification
•Valid First Aid certificate
•Sea time:
◦800 miles logged within 10 years prior to examination
◦30 days living on board
◦2 days as skipper
◦12 night hours "

.

 

[Tranona]

Its a Yachtmaster Offshore 'Preparation' Course, since there is no such thing as a YM Offshore Practical Course.

Bit of pedantry going on here. The OP was looking for advice on (among other things) what level of qualification would be appropriate for his plans. YM Offshore is the standard to aim for. To achive that from from his current base he will need to do the course mentioned above. Given his experience he would probably have some difficulty in meeting the practical, so not unreasonable to suggest he has some form of tuition. Not unreasonable to describe a programme of tuition as a "course" in the vernacular.

 

[Ubergeekian]

Its a Yachtmaster Offshore 'Preparation' Course, since there is no such thing as a YM Offshore Practical Course.

The RYA seem to think there is, since they call it the "Coastal Skipper / Yachtmaster Offshore" course. OK, no "practical" in there, but it's not a theory course.