Bergman
Well-Known Member
Re: Limited relevance
Perrier water = £1
Bavaria yacht = £100,000
Not convinced by the analogy.
Perrier water = £1
Bavaria yacht = £100,000
Not convinced by the analogy.
Bavarias keel falls off..
- Thread starter dave31
- Start date
Twister_Ken
Well-Known Member
Re: Limited relevance
Not at all.
Crisis management is crisis management, and Perrier made some mistakes, but by 'fessing up, withdrawing stocks etc, they survived with some dignity and although they never recaptured their previous market share they came out the other side as well as could be expected.
The case studies of crisis management usually conclude that it's the businesses that go into denial/cover up that come unstuck in the end.
As to £1 vs £100,000 consider the annual revenues of the two brands. Perrier, as part of Nestlé is impossible to filter out, but as a global brand I reckon it's worth many times more than Bav
Not at all.
Crisis management is crisis management, and Perrier made some mistakes, but by 'fessing up, withdrawing stocks etc, they survived with some dignity and although they never recaptured their previous market share they came out the other side as well as could be expected.
The case studies of crisis management usually conclude that it's the businesses that go into denial/cover up that come unstuck in the end.
As to £1 vs £100,000 consider the annual revenues of the two brands. Perrier, as part of Nestlé is impossible to filter out, but as a global brand I reckon it's worth many times more than Bav
Re: Is the bav keel attachment method specific to them?
[ QUOTE ]
One important point is - is the bav method of attaching keels specific to them? I was surprised to see no single large backing plate of the same dimensions as the keel x-section as it meets the hull or bigger, to transmit impacts/loads across all the bolts and more of the hull. Does nobody do this? From earlier pix, bav seem to have simply used largish washers under each individual bolt.
[/ QUOTE ]
Most Bavaria Match yachts leave the factory with 1 or 2 backing plates that match the width of the keel root where it meets the hull. The problem is that the keel x-section is thin in pursuit of performance so the overall effect is high local twisting forces on the hull laminate under sail. The J&J specified mod increases the width of these backing plates nearly 3 times and makes it clear 3 such plates are to be fitted, not 1 or 2 or "washers" only as reported in the earliest Match 42's shipped to Norway.
These "washers" would be more fairly described as circular plates. They are 6cm in diameter and maybe 6mm thick. A washer implies to me a thin disk designed to deform a little under compression.
Even so Bavaria should not have used such washers to attach a deep performance keel. In the Adriatic photos I can see circular tear holes in the laminate that indicate the washers tore clean holes through the hull skin fore and aft of the central backing plate.
[ QUOTE ]
One important point is - is the bav method of attaching keels specific to them? I was surprised to see no single large backing plate of the same dimensions as the keel x-section as it meets the hull or bigger, to transmit impacts/loads across all the bolts and more of the hull. Does nobody do this? From earlier pix, bav seem to have simply used largish washers under each individual bolt.
[/ QUOTE ]
Most Bavaria Match yachts leave the factory with 1 or 2 backing plates that match the width of the keel root where it meets the hull. The problem is that the keel x-section is thin in pursuit of performance so the overall effect is high local twisting forces on the hull laminate under sail. The J&J specified mod increases the width of these backing plates nearly 3 times and makes it clear 3 such plates are to be fitted, not 1 or 2 or "washers" only as reported in the earliest Match 42's shipped to Norway.
These "washers" would be more fairly described as circular plates. They are 6cm in diameter and maybe 6mm thick. A washer implies to me a thin disk designed to deform a little under compression.
Even so Bavaria should not have used such washers to attach a deep performance keel. In the Adriatic photos I can see circular tear holes in the laminate that indicate the washers tore clean holes through the hull skin fore and aft of the central backing plate.
Bier and big German girls! This sounds interesting but I would not want to be mistaken as an apologist for Bavaria Yachts.
I hope the Company is found guilty of corporate manslaughter. Would extradition treaties allow Hungary to express an interest in this matter? With a bit of luck the MD of Bavaria Yachts will have time to contemplate his business practices from the inside of a communist built jail cell.
I hope the Company is found guilty of corporate manslaughter. Would extradition treaties allow Hungary to express an interest in this matter? With a bit of luck the MD of Bavaria Yachts will have time to contemplate his business practices from the inside of a communist built jail cell.
Sailfree
Well-Known Member
Re: Limited relevance
[ QUOTE ]
Perrier water = £1
Bavaria yacht = £100,000
Not convinced by the analogy.
[/ QUOTE ]
The analogy is how a business handles bad news irrelivant of considering fault. If you are going to price individual items its the effect on total turnover thats important.
On turnover score I don't know the exact figures but would be surprised if Perrier Water is not 10x that of Bavarias therefore potential total revenue lost is far more significant.
[ QUOTE ]
Perrier water = £1
Bavaria yacht = £100,000
Not convinced by the analogy.
[/ QUOTE ]
The analogy is how a business handles bad news irrelivant of considering fault. If you are going to price individual items its the effect on total turnover thats important.
On turnover score I don't know the exact figures but would be surprised if Perrier Water is not 10x that of Bavarias therefore potential total revenue lost is far more significant.
tcm
...
fair enough....
So the backing plates for the whole cluster of keelbolts - that's what other builders do? And not the (yes, ok) big individual plates (or oversized washers) on each bolt?
So the backing plates for the whole cluster of keelbolts - that's what other builders do? And not the (yes, ok) big individual plates (or oversized washers) on each bolt?
Bergman
Well-Known Member
Re: Limited relevance
Agree about crisis management and in broad terms being open and honest is usually the best policy (interestingly in a government crisis it becomes the last and least favorite option)
Please Ken - I do detest such terms as "fessing up" lets stick with English English -Please
Perhaps the best example of clever crisis management was Commercial Union when they took a big hit from the Bishopsgate bomb - "We did'nt make a drama out of a crisis" - you may remember their slogan from the time.
That was their retail, public facing approach. It wa paralleled by a rather different set of strategies on a business to business and business to regulator level. Naturally so, because the strategy used for managing a crisis depends upon a number of factors, major ones being the market in which the company operates, and any regulation that applies to the company and/or its products.
Certainly the worst thing that Bav can do now is to allow speculation, much ill informed, to grow without any solid response from the company. In these cases the truth becomes that which people believe and that is what Bav have got to address quickly, because people seem to be starting to believe the worst.
Me? don't have a Bav, don't want one, so no interest either way.
I quoted the prices as a simple indicator of the very different markets that Perrier and Bav operate in and the different expectations of customers and potential customers in thse markets. Clearly difficult for Bav to "withdraw stocks" but it would be interesting to know what, if any, info has been given to their dealers.
Agree about crisis management and in broad terms being open and honest is usually the best policy (interestingly in a government crisis it becomes the last and least favorite option)
Please Ken - I do detest such terms as "fessing up" lets stick with English English -Please
Perhaps the best example of clever crisis management was Commercial Union when they took a big hit from the Bishopsgate bomb - "We did'nt make a drama out of a crisis" - you may remember their slogan from the time.
That was their retail, public facing approach. It wa paralleled by a rather different set of strategies on a business to business and business to regulator level. Naturally so, because the strategy used for managing a crisis depends upon a number of factors, major ones being the market in which the company operates, and any regulation that applies to the company and/or its products.
Certainly the worst thing that Bav can do now is to allow speculation, much ill informed, to grow without any solid response from the company. In these cases the truth becomes that which people believe and that is what Bav have got to address quickly, because people seem to be starting to believe the worst.
Me? don't have a Bav, don't want one, so no interest either way.
I quoted the prices as a simple indicator of the very different markets that Perrier and Bav operate in and the different expectations of customers and potential customers in thse markets. Clearly difficult for Bav to "withdraw stocks" but it would be interesting to know what, if any, info has been given to their dealers.
Re: fair enough....
[ QUOTE ]
So the backing plates for the whole cluster of keelbolts - that's what other builders do? And not the (yes, ok) big individual plates (or oversized washers) on each bolt?
[/ QUOTE ]
Err yes and no.
Beneteau drop a similar sized GRP floor grid onto epoxy paste. I think Bavaria use some epoxy paste but they also use limited GRP tabbing to enhance the bonding between the floor grid and inner hull surface. The difference is that the Beneteau grid has an outward facing lip just large enough to accommodate keel bolt holes and small square backing plates not much larger than the washers already discussed. As a result keel bolt tension is more effectively transferred to the grid even though the whole setup is still agricultural.
Posh performance yachts like the new X35 have multiple transverse steel ribs perhaps 1/3 to 1/2 the beam of the hull. One photo on the Net indicates these ribs are a welded box sections contoured to the shape of the hull.
Once the J&J mod has been implemented on a Bavaria Match the resulting design will have X-Yacht and Beneteau characteristics.
[ QUOTE ]
So the backing plates for the whole cluster of keelbolts - that's what other builders do? And not the (yes, ok) big individual plates (or oversized washers) on each bolt?
[/ QUOTE ]
Err yes and no.
Beneteau drop a similar sized GRP floor grid onto epoxy paste. I think Bavaria use some epoxy paste but they also use limited GRP tabbing to enhance the bonding between the floor grid and inner hull surface. The difference is that the Beneteau grid has an outward facing lip just large enough to accommodate keel bolt holes and small square backing plates not much larger than the washers already discussed. As a result keel bolt tension is more effectively transferred to the grid even though the whole setup is still agricultural.
Posh performance yachts like the new X35 have multiple transverse steel ribs perhaps 1/3 to 1/2 the beam of the hull. One photo on the Net indicates these ribs are a welded box sections contoured to the shape of the hull.
Once the J&J mod has been implemented on a Bavaria Match the resulting design will have X-Yacht and Beneteau characteristics.
Bergman
Well-Known Member
Re: Limited relevance
An afterthought really
But keep an eye on the E-Coli outbreak in Wales
Crisis for butcher involved and for people affected, but very little in way of hard facts being made public.
I'll take a bet that Bav come out of their incident better than he does.
An afterthought really
But keep an eye on the E-Coli outbreak in Wales
Crisis for butcher involved and for people affected, but very little in way of hard facts being made public.
I'll take a bet that Bav come out of their incident better than he does.