Bavaria C45 - Dangerous Nav Lights

Chindit said:
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The wiring must be particularly complex as you would not expect it to be an onerous task to change the wiring so the emergency switch operates the tricolour or Navlights instead of the steaming light.
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I have to admit that I've never looked in detail at these Canbus controlled lights, but I've always assumed that they received their power over the bus and, as such, there may not be any easy connection for the manual override.
 
Why don't you just buy a set of emergency nav lights and go sailing.

Life is way too short.
 
I have to ask the question as to whether the installation of canbus systems or any other type of "hi tech" control of important lights, devices etc is the correct way forward for vessels that may be away from the manufacturers support technicians and maybe offshore when a potential failure occurs.
I know that most of us have gps plotters etc etc now but I would think most people also have backup for those systems should they fail. Other boat systems are normally relatively simple and can be repaired by the owner or by local technicians if required.
Ok for the modern car that breaks down on the motorway and can call out a towtruck, not so good for a boat in the middle of no where.
Having had a car with canbus and experienced the problems and cost of getting things fixed, I wouldn't have them anywhere near my boat.
 
greeny said:
I have to ask the question as to whether the installation of canbus systems or any other type of "hi tech" control of important lights, devices etc is the correct way forward for vessels that may be away from the manufacturers support technicians and maybe offshore when a potential failure occurs.
I know that most of us have gps plotters etc etc now but I would think most people also have backup for those systems should they fail. Other boat systems are normally relatively simple and can be repaired by the owner or by local technicians if required.
Ok for the modern car that breaks down on the motorway and can call out a towtruck, not so good for a boat in the middle of no where.
Having had a car with canbus and experienced the problems and cost of getting things fixed, I wouldn't have them anywhere near my boat.
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Quite. Stuff like this and common-rail diesels with ECUs and stuff would put me off buying a boat.
 
Bobc said:
Quite. Stuff like this and common-rail diesels with ECUs and stuff would put me off buying a boat.
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+1 I think the op is barking up the wrong tree. A set of emergency lights and a switchable steaming lights is all he needs to be colreg compliant if his canbus system fails, it seems to me this is how Bavaria designed it. What are you going to do in a total electrical failure and you can't use the flick switch nav lights?

What he should be asking Bavaria why his canbus system is failing so often to warrant the need to have switchable nav lights. If it's not and this isn't the real question, what's the fuss?

If they decide to "fix" your issue and wire the switch to light the tri are you fussed about showing the correct nav lights for motoring?
 
I‘ve seen a different brand of CAN-controlled switch box that had a backup blade fuse socket for each output, that was normally empty. Inserting a fuse into the socket would bridge directly from the power rail to the output, forcing it on regardless of the state or health of the smart controller. The fuse then provided the overload protection normally performed electronically.

I wondered if this Naviop system had something similar, and it seems that it does - at least the “Loop” product I was able to find a manual for. Each switchable output has an associated terminal that will force the relay on, again regardless of what the smart controller thinks. They actually recommend permanently installing a backup switch attached to this override terminal on circuits that are critical - including nav lights!

Maybe you have a different Naviop product, but it certainly seems worth investigating. The fact that they’ve fitted one override switch suggests that the facility is there. If you’re happy with the backup switches right next to the control box, which seems reasonable, the wiring involved could be trivial.

Pete
 
Chindit said:
Thanks to people for th

Sandy - Did no one teach you the old adage “Never Assumel

1. Of course I carry emergency lights. They are a backup.

2. Don’t assume I can “roll my sleeves up“ and fix intricate wiring which links Nav lights into a canbus system. The emergency override switch is installed for the very purpose of still being able to use the lights if the Naviop system fails. If I was to start playing with it I would probably also invalidate the warranty. This was a new boat and should be correctly wired. I understand the override switch works correctly on the most recent boats so should be corrected for those that were wired incorrectly
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I would contact your dealer by registered letter saying they have two weeks to come up with a solution or you will have it rectified by a marine electrician and use the Small Claims Court to recover your costs.

It might - note might - promote action.

A class action by other affected owners would give you better leverage.

PM RichardS - He has had good results in this area.
 
Chindit said:
Sandy - Did no one teach you the old adage “Never Assumel

1. Of course I carry emergency lights. They are a backup.

2. Don’t assume I can “roll my sleeves up“ and fix intricate wiring which links Nav lights into a canbus system. The emergency override switch is installed for the very purpose of still being able to use the lights if the Naviop system fails. If I was to start playing with it I would probably also invalidate the warranty. This was a new boat and should be correctly wired. I understand the override switch works correctly on the most recent boats so should be corrected for those that were wired incorrectly
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I'm an engineer, during my working life I never assumed anything; a lot of people would have died had I done so. I suspect the difference is I would have sat down and learnt all I could about canbus technology and either presented the manufacturer or the dealer with the diagnosis of the problem, so making the fix time to 10 mins and removing their excuse for not getting off thier arses or fixing it myself. My main point about going to sea with a system you don't understand still stands.

The canbus systems are not that complicated and are very robust, just need a bit of time to learn what they do and how they do it.
 
greeny said:
I have to ask the question as to whether the installation of canbus systems or any other type of "hi tech" control of important lights, devices etc is the correct way forward for vessels that may be away from the manufacturers support technicians and maybe offshore when a potential failure occurs.
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A complex system to switch on lights that cannot be relied on so needs traditional mechanical switches and wiring as backup (which would have done the job perfectly well on their own) sounds like a wonk from the marketing department had a solution and went looking for a non-existing problem.
 
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Totally agree. Hands up all those that have complained about the inability to fault find and repair their modern cars due to these systems. Here they are doing it to boats. Introducing more potential failure points that most of us can't diagnose and fix.
 
Stemar said:
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Can someone explain to me the advantages of Canbus? For the user, that is, not the manufacturer, who saves money on wire and makes money when it fails.
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It's quicker than NMEA 0183 & Seatalk 1. NMEA 0183 is pushing the limit of its bandwidth for AIS.

It's widely used in bigger industries, for example automotive & process control. This means that there are plenty of cheap microcontrollers with it integrated keeping component count & cost down.

It's a multidrop bus not point to point so you don't need a multiplexer, which means it is cheaper & uses less power.

It's great for getting non safety critical data around cheaply & quickly (you wouldn't use it for fly by wire for example), but using it to switch on lights then having old tech switches & wires as well in case it fails is not a sensible use.
 
Also..Hands up who would think twice about buying a 10 yr old boat with Canbus?
If one needs to bypass the tricolour, that is running extra wires up the mast, not easy.
 
I suppose it'll most probably work fine for the first owner. Builders don't care about subsequent ones.

I'm reminded of a boat that had a saildrive, but the whole lump was dropped in before the deck went on and there was no access afterwards. Someone pointed out that the saildrive seal needs to be changed every seven years and the job would involve liberal use of an angle grinder. "Our owners don't keep their boats that long, Sir."

It's very unlikely it'll ever concern me, but it would have to be a very special boat in all other respects for me to accept a bunch of microprocessors in a damp, salty environment.
 
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