Bavaria, Beneteau or Jeanneau

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Among "modern" sailing cruisers, the Bavarias, Beneteaus and the Jeanneaus seem to be much cheaper than say, The Amels and Waquierez. Which of those mentioned are likely to be reasonable blue water cruisers?
Are there any significant or well known problems likely to make them less suitabgle for passage making.
TIA for your input.
 
Welcome to the forum!

You may either be ignored or overwhelmed with replies.

This is because this topic is regularly aired and there are some very diverse views.

My summary. Bavs etc are superb products for their markets - otherwise they would not sell so many. However, their market is not primarily Blue Water cruisers, although many are used as part time or full time live aboards, particularly in the Med. They are well built, use good equipment and used properly will give plenty of satisfaction. Many individuals have used them for Blue Water - see entries to the ARC for example.

On the other hand the more expensive boats are designed and built for a different market in which people value different design characteristics or build standards. Such boats are produced in much smaller volumes, so are inherently more expensive. The market is much smaller and buyers more individualistic. Many such boats appear more suitable for Blue Water, and indeed are used for that purpose. However, many are not, for all sorts of reasons. Many such boats live in the Solent and never get farther than Cherbourg.

My take (as a Bavaria owner) is that my boat is fantastic for what I do - drifting around the eastern med with the odd longer passage. I would be quite happy with it in the Channel (but the bimini and shower on the back would not get much use). Many Bavarias have crossed the Atlantic and I would not be afraid to do it in mine. But if that was my primary objective, I would buy a different boat.
 
All these factories make a diverse range of boats. Suggest you narrow the field by size, budget etc, then look at ARC , AZAB, Fastnet and any other events.
'Blue water' covers a fair range too, from picking your weather to cross the Med, to bashing around Scotland in the wind and rain!
Horse for courses.
 
It is much more a question of which specific model than which make, and in all cases some of the older designs are better than current offerings if you really want a "blue water" boat. In the case of Jeanneau the late 80's Voyage 12.50 has a good reputation, though GRP from that era is more prone to osmosis than the later stuff. My own Jeanneau model (the 45.2) was used by friends for an Atlantic crossing, and stood up to it well, some have circumnavigated though it would not be my first choice for such duty. IMHO it is a better boat than the current 45.

Bavaria used to make "Ocean" centre cockpit models which look a much better choice for tough conditions than similar sized current boats.

Consider also the fact that modern cruising yacht design favours broad beamed, straight stemmed, flat hulled boats with wide transoms, apeing racing yacht hull forms and providing maximum internal volume for the boat length. These features are not desirable in a "blue water" boat, where a deeper narrower hull and in particular a narrower stern will result in a more seakindly shape.

I suggest you consider how big a boat you need, then how much you can afford and start drawing up a shortlist of suitable models from all manufacturers.
 
The main comment I would make about plans for extended living on board as you seem to be planning, (Mrs Maxi and I intend doing the same when I retire) is that AWBs tend to be designed to maximise the number of berths, even in the so called Owners Versions. Older or more bespoke boats tend to have more 'living space'. Our older Moody 36 has a very large aft cabin with en-suite, a decen saloon and cockpit and a generous forecabin for storage. Ideal for 2 living abourd.
 
Thank you all for your comments, there is a great deal of sense in them, or just that you you are reinforcing my views. Tranona, The Bavs are now on my list for closer investigation, LW 395 I have also in the past " Bashed up the Solent" against wind and tide and had the dinghy try to come aboard. Norman E, Your comments are particularly interesting, The older Glass boats have a strong attraction for me as they generally seem to be over-engineered. Osmosis doesn't worry me, just cut back and epoxy. yet to hear of a boat sinking due to osmosis! Maxi77, one of those close to the top of my list at present is the Halberdier - Just something about those Moody boats.l
 
I suppose you really need to consider where you are taking the boat as has been indicated above.

When we bought our boat we were very fond of the Dehler 37 due to its speed and performance (being ex-dinghy racers) however came to realise that for what we are doing (Australia initially via panama and pacific) a heavier and more substantial beast was probably more suitable.

If, however, I was taking a boat to the med, I would prob put up with a little discomfort in offshore rough stuff as its only the delivery we would see suffer and there-after the med appeals of modern boats (sugar scoops etc) would be a big bonus.

All depends on what you want to do with the boat. The 'modern' boats you talk about are certainly hardy boats that last well (otherwise Sunsail etc wouldn't use them!), but they are designed for a certain type of sailing. Likewise, a heavy offshore boat would be great in the ocean, but its long keel would make berthing stern too more challenging, and its narrow saloon would be less comfortable than a modern airy boat.

Similarly, to classify, say Bavarias, as modern light boats isn't fair. The original Bavarias (390 etc) were very heavily built (heavier than the Moody 40 of the same period I believe!) and a completely different boat from a current Bavaria. Similarly, Liza & Andy Copeland have circumnavigated and done 200,000+ miles in a 1980's Beneteau - which is a very different boat from a modern Oceanis say.

Lots to think about! I took us 6 months of mind bending thinking around these topics to find our boat (Colvic Countess 37).

Jonny
 
Hi, you will see lots of stuff in replies to this question which is - well er questionable. The reason for this that the manufacturers you mention make boats that are suitable for many different applications, you need to examine the STYX numbers for the actual model you are interested in to see how well a boat is suited to your application. As some posters have already stated the latest additions to the ranges may have the length but they dont have the same characteristics as earlier models of the same length. If its oceans you want to cross then a STYX or is it STIX? number over 40 is required. To be Category A a boat needs a styx of 32 or greater so the CAT system is really not a good guide - IF we suggest that 40 is a starting point for ocean crossing!

There's a lot in these forums about this subject, and in my humble opinion a lot of old wives tales as well. As far as I am concerned the AMEL is an excellent boat that ticks all the boxes just a shame I couldn't afford one. Waquierez use Jeanneau hulls - read into that what you will.

The styx numbers can be found on the rya website
 
Jonny has a good point about weight. It is not necessarily the weight that gives you an indication of how substantial the construction is. Compare my Bav 37 which displaces 5.3 tonnes of which 3.58 are structure and 1.76 are ballast. An HR36 displaces 7.64 of which ballast is 3.4 and structure is 4.34.

This is all a trade off. More ballast (or rather higher ballast ratio) means higher loads, larger sail area - the HR has over 150 sq ft or 30% more sail than my Bav - a 57hp motor compared with my 29 and so on.

What you get in return is a larger volume hull and a substantially lower price because (ignoring the manufacturing efficiencies) all the gear can be smaller in size - but not lower in quality. Same mast and rigging, same make engine and so on.

However the designs behave differently because of the differences in choices made by the designers, which in turn reflect what they think their customers want.

Back to real choice. With my Bavaria type budget or probably a bit more - for more "demanding" sailing I would go similar to Jonny, but probably a Moody 37/376 or possibly a Westerly Corsair if I could shrink a bit to fit the slightly smallers spaces! Or if I sold my Morgan might stretch to a Bavaria 38 Ocean - but would not be popular with SWMBO.

Always a good discussion topic!
 
Almost all modern boats have balsa cored hulls including HRs, Bavaria etc. As with all techniques the secret is in th application, so although some boats have problems with water ingress into cores, it is not a general issue.
 
The Stix numbers are in the Stability table in the technical section of the Knowledge part of the RYA site. However, it is incomplete as the data has to be provided by the builder and not all do that, even though they have to state it in the boats documentation for the RCD.

However, it is a composite measure, and like all such measures is only as good as the assumptions upon which it is based.

There is, however an issue with the definition of Category A "Ocean" where the conditions used to describe usage are low compared with actual usage conditions. Therefore the everyday meaning of Ocean is being used to describe conditions much lower than might be experienced in some Ocean sailing. Therefore there is an argument for a sort of "Super" A category with higher Stix requirements than would be acieved by many current Category A boats. As you might imagine, many builders would resist such a move.

This is an argument for relying on empirical evidence rather than theoretical calculations. However this will reveal many examples of successful ocean voyages in boats that would never get anywhere near Category A so might not actually be helpful! On the other hand there are enough examples of the sorts of boats used for ocean voyaging for the reasonably aware yachtsman to make up his (or her) own mind about the suitability of any particular design!
 
I used to own a Bav 42 Ocean. Great yacht and lovely layout. I think the 38 is just a little short for the layout, try the 40. I think it looks a lot better.

A couple of points though... If you are buying, make sure you get a survey. Bavaria do cut costs by using a 'teak' deck that is a teak faced plywood. When water gets underneath it rots the base layers. Expensive to replace. I had a couple of patches when I sold mine earlier this year.

However, I think all the modern production yachts suffer from slamming (the Bav Ocean range included). In any sort of chop the flat bottom just ahead of the keel whacks down and makes a noisy and uncomfortable ride.

Outside of that they are very well put together and very good accomadation.

Another CC yacht you could look at is the Bene 36CC. A friend of mine has one and it is also very well laid out and has a very protected cockpit. He has the rigid dog house and it gives a lot of protection from spray (and rain...)

Good luck
 
For reasons I cannot answer I am unable to connect to the RYA site from Jeddah.

But on this thorney subject of suitablity of different craft the static data does provide a good starting point BUT as others have said the manufacturing methods are changing fast, divini cell, vaccum bagging and so on are reducing weight because the resin process is more accuratley controled. This leaves us all uneasy concerning the perception of strength vs weight concepts and in the end you have to look at each offereing on its own merits. I like Jeanneau because they were "old fashioned" till about 2004.

Then we come to the "how do they actually perform in use" question and that IMHO depends on how well they are managed on the day as much as what conditions they face. So a novice sailing a Spray is more likely to have more problems than an old sea dog in an open boat (Remember Cptn Bligh)

Someone is bound to cite the dugout outrigger canoe as being the answer to all our problems and yes some have crossed the pacific - but only a small percentage of those that tried.

If you are serious about blue water sailing then get some sea miles in different boats then make up your mind.
 
We have a Moody Carbineer 46 and have friends who have a fairly recent Beneteau 46. Similar size and price but the list of differences is fairly long, even ignoring the different rigs. As previous posters have indicated, you choice should be dictated by the way you will use the boat.



Just couple from my list…
The Beneteau is a far better boat for inside entertaining, the main cabin is bigger (wider) and, being newer, looks a lot smarter and is not cluttered with the inside steering gear.

You may want to consider steering positions.
When it is cold and wet (do you do cold and wet?) do you have the option to be inside with the doors shut?

The Carbineer has over twice the storage and a dedicated engine room (definitely a low ceiling)

For someone new to this size of boat the Beneteau is easier to reverse. It took a lesson with a retired tug boat skipper and a fair bit of practice for me to get to be able to confidently turn the boat in a 60ft gap and park in reverse without using the bow thruster. In forward there is no difference.

All boats require running maintenance regardless of age so don’t worry too much about that side, neither are cheap. Finally, yes, they are sailing boats but what about range under engine, is it important? (1000 nm max. on engine (115hp) with the Moody, not sure of Beneteau)
 
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Waquierez use Jeanneau hulls - read into that what you will.



[/ QUOTE ]

Are you sure of this? If so when did it start? I visited the jeanneau factory to see all stages of my boat being built and no where did i see hulls being diverted to go to another factory.
 
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