tchin tchin
New Member
Just had a new Bavaria 32 lifted and discovered problems with the keel, did you manage to get yours resolved?
Bavaria 39 keel problems
- Thread starter jimmy_the_builder
- Start date
maby
Well-Known Member
You do realise that this thread is a couple of years old?
If the boat is new, then any problems should be covered by the warranty. What is actually wrong?
Talulah
Well-Known Member
The trouble I keep hearing is that when it comes to large warranty claims the big builders (not just Bavaria) instead of stepping up to the mark often back away and deny responsibility blaming it on someone else. The end result may be a short term gain for the builder but in the long term it must hit sales as there are several brands I would now never buy. Some of the large claims I do know about have come with gagging clauses as part of the agreement to fix it under warranty. I suspect if certain brands had a recognition for dealing with warranty claims by accepting responsibility early on then they would be better sought after.
Getting back to the OP I understand the problem with the Bav 32 is the keel buckling the hull inwards when the boat sits on its keel. Is this your issue?
tchin tchin
New Member
Dealer has arranged for boat to be lifted for inspection by surveyor to determine issue, I'm just concerned that keels have fallen off Bavaria boats in the past with the loss of lives, as I understand.
sailorman
Well-Known Member
The keel "fall off" issue was the Bavaria Match Class
WF36
Well-Known Member
Its not just Bavaria's that loose underwater fittings, last week at our sailing club a Delher 36 which was only a few years old rudder fell off and had to be towed back by the lifeboat
Baggywrinkle
Well-Known Member
I don't have any knowledge of the particular problems in this rather old thread, but this makes very interesting reading.
http://www.yachtsurvey.com/HullFailPart1.htm
All modern fiberglass boats will flex to some extent, it's intended - if they don't flex then the loads are not dissipated and may cause localised problems where laminate thickness makes abrupt changes or internal bulkheads/stringers are bonded to the hull. Older boats where the hull was moulded in two halves can even spring leaks along the centre-line when subjected to lateral compression. The real question is how much flex is too much. I don't have the answer to that question and it may be that in 20-30 years time we start to see laminate failure in current modern designs - or we might not.
Either way, the manufacturer will point to the number of boats produced and the lack of any conclusive proof that it is a problem. After all, they want to avoid what would be a very expensive re-work.
I hauled my boat out for a well-respected fiber-glass boat repair company to give it a once over before I bought it. I had a number of concerns about the hull/keel and internal structure as I was used to more over-built designs.
They held it in the slings and pushed the keel from side to side to set up a harmonic, then checked the hull around the keel root for any signs of hairline cracks or movement. It was quite disconcerting as there was flex in the hull but the response was - they all do that - and then they gave it a clean bill of health - nothing wrong, keel ok, hull ok, internal structure sound. So I decided not to worry about it. Having seen some of the repairs they have undertaken I have no reason to doubt that they know what they are talking about. The boat is now 13 years old with dry, clean bilges and a keel still firmly attached - albeit with a bit of flex. It might be the case that with smaller boats, due to the lower loads (lighter keels, smaller hulls) that flexing isn't so noticeable, but in larger power boats it is even more prevelant - read the link above.
The other issue is perhaps the hull has been weakened by grounding (drying out for example when large waves might repeatedly dump the boat on a concrete drying pad before it eventually settles), by being dropped in its slings or damaged in transport. A good surveyor should be able to detect damage.
I hope you get peace of mind and resolution one way or the other.
http://www.yachtsurvey.com/HullFailPart1.htm
All modern fiberglass boats will flex to some extent, it's intended - if they don't flex then the loads are not dissipated and may cause localised problems where laminate thickness makes abrupt changes or internal bulkheads/stringers are bonded to the hull. Older boats where the hull was moulded in two halves can even spring leaks along the centre-line when subjected to lateral compression. The real question is how much flex is too much. I don't have the answer to that question and it may be that in 20-30 years time we start to see laminate failure in current modern designs - or we might not.
Either way, the manufacturer will point to the number of boats produced and the lack of any conclusive proof that it is a problem. After all, they want to avoid what would be a very expensive re-work.
I hauled my boat out for a well-respected fiber-glass boat repair company to give it a once over before I bought it. I had a number of concerns about the hull/keel and internal structure as I was used to more over-built designs.
They held it in the slings and pushed the keel from side to side to set up a harmonic, then checked the hull around the keel root for any signs of hairline cracks or movement. It was quite disconcerting as there was flex in the hull but the response was - they all do that - and then they gave it a clean bill of health - nothing wrong, keel ok, hull ok, internal structure sound. So I decided not to worry about it. Having seen some of the repairs they have undertaken I have no reason to doubt that they know what they are talking about. The boat is now 13 years old with dry, clean bilges and a keel still firmly attached - albeit with a bit of flex. It might be the case that with smaller boats, due to the lower loads (lighter keels, smaller hulls) that flexing isn't so noticeable, but in larger power boats it is even more prevelant - read the link above.
The other issue is perhaps the hull has been weakened by grounding (drying out for example when large waves might repeatedly dump the boat on a concrete drying pad before it eventually settles), by being dropped in its slings or damaged in transport. A good surveyor should be able to detect damage.
I hope you get peace of mind and resolution one way or the other.
tchin tchin
New Member
I accept that Bavaria build different types of boats but the keel still fell off!
Baggywrinkle
Well-Known Member
Honestly, the Bav keel issue with the Match 42 is really old news - yes it happened and it's been debated to death on the internet.
The question you need to answer is what are the similarities between the Match 42 keel/hull joint and your boat. A failure in one design doesn't necessarily mean that the entire range has the same problem, even less so one built many years later - the Match 42 is a very different beast to a Bav 32 cruiser.
Here is all I can find of the original Match 42 discussions ...
http://crew.org.nz/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=14599
It appears the hungarian site, which had a more complete story, is no longer there.
Anyway, the Adriatic Challenge fleet of Bavaria Match yachts seems to be alive a kicking after the keel mods.....
http://www.adriatic-challenge.com/sailing-regatta-croatia.html
tchin tchin
New Member
Hi Baggywrinkle,
I do see water in the bilge area where the keel bolts are, not checked for salinity but the water is there nevertheless. Could be an ingress from the hull/keel jointed area. Don't want to speculate too much here, would rather await the surveyor's report. I must say though, the merest suggestion that there was a keel fault did get the dealer's attention, prior to this the response to issues has been lukewarm at best with issues remaining outstanding even til this day.
I note that the seaworthiness certification for the vessel that I've received relates to much earlier versions of the same vessel design, which has undergone substantial changes/improvements, or so I'm led to believe.
Perhaps because the boat has been out on to the Irish Sea in some brisk conditions that I am seeing problems as opposed to a "Lakes" user. Who can say, all I know is that the dealer doesn't receive complaints from other owners. I must of got a "Friday Afternoon" one.
I do see water in the bilge area where the keel bolts are, not checked for salinity but the water is there nevertheless. Could be an ingress from the hull/keel jointed area. Don't want to speculate too much here, would rather await the surveyor's report. I must say though, the merest suggestion that there was a keel fault did get the dealer's attention, prior to this the response to issues has been lukewarm at best with issues remaining outstanding even til this day.
I note that the seaworthiness certification for the vessel that I've received relates to much earlier versions of the same vessel design, which has undergone substantial changes/improvements, or so I'm led to believe.
Perhaps because the boat has been out on to the Irish Sea in some brisk conditions that I am seeing problems as opposed to a "Lakes" user. Who can say, all I know is that the dealer doesn't receive complaints from other owners. I must of got a "Friday Afternoon" one.
Baggywrinkle
Well-Known Member
I would imagine it did, Bavaria are very sensitive about their keels. Waiting for the surveyors report is the sensible thing to do.
You don't say what year your boat is but if it's anything like mine (and I'm paranoid about water in the bilge) then there are many more likely sources than the keel bolts. Here are some I've experienced over the years in various boats, chartered and belonging to friends/family.
Sealant around rear fairlead old and broken meaning rainwater (or seawater) drains into the aft section of the boat and runs forwards, past the engine into the bilge.
Leaking hatch handles meaning rainwater drips onto the floor below and ends up in the bilge.
Sealant at foot of stachion no longer effective, water runs down inside of hull and ends up in bilge.
Pipe run from electric bilge pump to rear exit, pipe too short and straight allowing water to run into bilge when waves break over the stern.
Puddles forming on side decks leak through deck hardware, run down hull and end up in bilge.
Internal plumbing fresh water leaks, which run into bilge.
Condensation on stainless steel rods which connect to shrouds, runs down into bilge.
Cracked floor in shower compartment or poorly sealing drain allows water to run into bilge.
Logs, depth sounders and through hull fittings leaking, runs into bilge.
Exhaust leaking allowing raw cooling water to leak into bilge.
Leaking windows.
Poor sealing round sink/tap.
For it to be a keel bolt leak, it would mean a leak below the water line which would mean regular deployment of the automatic bilge pump - the hydrostatic pressure is relatively high at the keel joint as it's the lowest point of the hull. I had a hairline leak around my echo sounder sensor - the crack was invisible but it was letting in about a teaspoon-full an hour. Keel bolts are even deeper and the leak will be constant, so the bilge should fill up over time.
By their very nature and the environment they live in, boats have a tendency to let water in. In my Bav there are holes through the grid system which allow water to run from other sections into the section where the bilge pump is (it's in with the keel bolts) so most leaks between the chart table and the forward bulkhead would end up in with the keel bolts. From chart table back, it would end up in the section in front of the motor and from the bulkhead forward it would end up in the floor in the forward cabin or the space where the log/echo sounder is. Fortunately, it's all dry at present.
Hope it is nothing serious but I wouldn't panic yet.
Sybarite
Well-Known Member
And a good lawyer.
Sybarite
Well-Known Member
Warranty is only one aspect of the legal position. The thing should be fit for purpose and a boat where the keel can fall off in less than 10 years is clearly not fit for purpose. That's why I suggest a lawyer as well.
maby
Well-Known Member
I thought the implication was that it is brand new...
tchin tchin
New Member
The boat came by road brand new from the factory of Bavaria Yachtbau GmbH in February 2013. Don't like the idea of lawyers, they can be worse than yacht dealers. But, when needs must etc..
Baggywrinkle
Well-Known Member
If it came from Germany in 2013 then it's either a manufacturing defect in the deck hardware/deck sealant or, if it was shipped with the keel detached, a keel/hull sealant problem when the boat was commissioned. Did the UK importer fit any additional equipment? That could also be a source of water ingress.
Hope you get it sorted one way or another.
Hope you get it sorted one way or another.
tchin tchin
New Member
The operatives that tipped up to commission the vessel did fit additional equipment, including for a transponder, and I have been pointing out that the amount of water that surrounds the transponder is abnormal, all that has fell on cloth ears. Well, when you are not a marine engineering expert like myself what else do you expect as a response! Wouldn't get away with such cavalier remarks in any other industry, I suspect! Leant against the door to the heads in a bit of a swell and it fell in, what a remarkable piece of craftsmanship. My fault I suppose for being on the water in a swell? If you bought a car and was tossed against the door in a sharp corner, you wouldn't expect to fall out of the vehicle, or would you! Read something about a minimum of 4kn force resistance for car doors to prevent such an event, obviously 18mm zinc alloy screws suffice in this instance. Balderdash!
Moving on...
Moving on...
maby
Well-Known Member
It is unfortunately the case that most modern AWBs are built more to a budget than a specification. Although I haven't tried it, I suspect that it would not be too difficult to shove open the closed heads door! But you should be able to rely on structural integrity. Don't rush to the lawyers just yet - talk to the dealer and get their explaination and proposed action. I'm afraid that it is the case that few modern boats will be delivered defect free - when we bought our Jeanneau, we went through a process lasting several months as the importer addressed a variety of relatively minor defects.
hairbox
Well-Known Member
It may be necessary on boats like Bavaria/Beneteau and the like which use galvanized steel bolts instead of stainless steel
since when did they not use stainless steel keel bolts?
since when did they not use stainless steel keel bolts?
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Sorry - but where did that gem come from? Most modern builders (including the Bavaria in question) have stainless steel keel bolts. Not that there is anything wrong with Galvanised mild steel except that it eventually rusts in damp bilges. Structurally either material is satisfactory.