Bavaria 39 keel problems

[macd]

Jimmy: I can't add anything useful to the comprehensive advice offered above but would just like to say your chum's lucky to have a mate like you. Think he owes you a couple (and hope he can afford 'em after the job's done). Good luck to you both.

 

[haydude]

He was just on the phone. Yes it is a deep lead keel.

HD you seem to be well-informed about this, are you a Bav 39 owner?

Cheers
Jimmy

There were reports of 42 Match models (same hull and keel design, racing version) in Croatia that lost the keel, but it turned out to be cases when there was an unreported previous grounding on rocks, and Croatia is a nasty place with irregular rocky seabed.
Bavaria released keel bolt plates mods for the Match models, but not for the Cruiser models.

Cruisers have fiberglass embedded steel reinforcing the keel attachment (not everyone knows that they have also embedded steel ribs, in particular by the shrouds joints).
Fiberglass on bow and keel is also reinforced with Kevlar. The keel bolts are galvanized steel (not stainless). There are different opinions around keel bolts steel, some say that stainless steel keel bolts rot from inside which cannot be spotted and cause sudden failure.

Never read of a case similar to yours, although I know (from surveyor) that it is not infrequent on recent AWB to find the back end of a keel showing fractions of a mm play after a few years from new and needing re-torquing (fiberglass hulls are flexible and do change shape with time). 12mm however is a lot of play and an indication that something else might be wrong.

My knowledge is still fresh from a recent research for a purchase, technical specs, pro/cons of the Bavaria Cruiser design and survey. Lead is good but softer than steel. Let us know how it goes and post pictures.

 

[jimmy_the_builder]

Thanks HD. To your point about grounding, this hasn't happened to my friends boat. His is exhibiting the same symptoms described by EyeCandy.

When you were researching your purchase, did you happen to come across any south coast based 39's with the lead keel?

Cheers
Jimmy

 

[haydude]

Thanks HD. To your point about grounding, this hasn't happened to my friends boat. His is exhibiting the same symptoms described by EyeCandy.

When you were researching your purchase, did you happen to come across any south coast based 39's with the lead keel?

Cheers
Jimmy

I am afraid not, I was looking for a larger size, same model however and I came across a 42 with Clipper Marine Ipswich, deep lead keel, and clear signs of having run aground. I believe they might still have it unsold. I ended up buying abroad.

Is your mate's a recent purchase?

 

[dt4134]

There were reports of 42 Match models (same hull and keel design, racing version) in Croatia that lost the keel, but it turned out to be cases when there was an unreported previous grounding on rocks, and Croatia is a nasty place with irregular rocky seabed.

There's a lot of dispute about that. I'm not even sure if the court case has concluded yet.

Bavaria were pretty quick to strengthen the hulls of the Matches.

The Bavaria Match range were a completely different hull design with a different keel design - they only came in the racing version, but of course could be used for cruising. They were actually not bad cruiser racers and were so devalued by the keel-loss incident that they are quite a bargain these days. With the strengthened hull they're fine - one survived being pounded on the beach at Weymouth without losing its keel.

Apart from providing ammunition to Bavaria bashers it doesn't tell you much about cruising Bavarias, except that Bavaria can get it wrong and will quickly resort to calling in the lawyers if there's an incident. The one in Croatia was a fatal incident remember.

 

[BrianH]

Originally Posted by haydude
There were reports of 42 Match models (same hull and keel design, racing version) in Croatia that lost the keel, but it turned out to be cases when there was an unreported previous grounding on rocks, and Croatia is a nasty place with irregular rocky seabed.

There's a lot of dispute about that..

Because I was cruising my own boat in the same area at the same time I followed this case closely.

Bavaria quickly (too quickly to be plausible) issued a damage limitation press release that erroneously reported a grounding as being the cause. It needed affidavits from the charter company and the charterers to refute the allegation. Bavaria never retracted and the myth persists, as shown above.

There is a short account here. Also, builders debated the subject interminably, here.

 

[jimmy_the_builder]

Is your mate's a recent purchase?

No - he bought it new in 2005.

Clipper Marine, the local Bav dealer, went down to have a look at the boat this afternoon, and my understanding is that everyone's agreeing that there's a problem with sagging caused by too much aft keel load on not enough keel bolts. It sounds like Clipper are being very helpful and are going to take it up with the factory, particularly in the light of other instances like EyeCandy's. It'll be very interesting to see what response they get - I'll keep the thread updated as I hear more.

In the meantime (and I apologise for sounding like a slightly stuck record) it would still be great to hear from any other Bav 39 owners.

Cheers
Jimmy

 

[haydude]

Please keep us posted on the outcome. I have a 6yo 42 Cruiser, deep lead keel. No problems but the design is the same.

 

[EyeCandy]

Yes Jimmy,
Please keep us posted as it goes.
Yes the 10mm plates filled the flat area between the floor frames and had holes to take the esisting bolts. I used the supplied washers on top of the plates as well. There is a deal of fiddly preparation and I did it on the hard one plate/section at a time. I would not try it in the water though!
Mine is a factory fitted keel delivered to Spain in 2005. The plate design came from an Australian yacht designer who was asked to do the design by the Australian dealer as a precaution following the loss of the Match keels. They fit them as standard for new boats since the keels are shipped separated from the hull to Aus.

Andrew

 

[jimmy_the_builder]

Yes Jimmy,
Please keep us posted as it goes.
Yes the 10mm plates filled the flat area between the floor frames and had holes to take the esisting bolts. I used the supplied washers on top of the plates as well. There is a deal of fiddly preparation and I did it on the hard one plate/section at a time. I would not try it in the water though!
Mine is a factory fitted keel delivered to Spain in 2005. The plate design came from an Australian yacht designer who was asked to do the design by the Australian dealer as a precaution following the loss of the Match keels. They fit them as standard for new boats since the keels are shipped separated from the hull to Aus.

Andrew

Hi Andrew

Thanks for this, and also your email with the drawings - really good of you to send these through. I was also interested in your observation that the 2006 boat that you'd looked at had a thicker floor - it would be great if we could track a late model down to see this for ourselves. But for right now I think the right thing to do is to wait and see what response Clipper Marine come up with.

I do think though that my mate with the poorly boat is feeling a lot happier about things now, thanks to this thread, than he was at the beginning of the week. Thanks again for all the replies, appreciated.

Cheers
Jimmy

 

[bob234]

Hi Andrew

Thanks for this, and also your email with the drawings - really good of you to send these through. I was also interested in your observation that the 2006 boat that you'd looked at had a thicker floor - it would be great if we could track a late model down to see this for ourselves. But for right now I think the right thing to do is to wait and see what response Clipper Marine come up with.

I do think though that my mate with the poorly boat is feeling a lot happier about things now, thanks to this thread, than he was at the beginning of the week. Thanks again for all the replies, appreciated.

Cheers
Jimmy

Hi,

Sorry, not a Bav 39 owner but a Bav 47 owner.

I understand that the reason there is not an 'aft most' bolt on some models is not because of the floor design but because of the keel. On some models the keel tapers to quite a fine point towards the aft and there isn't enough width to take a keelbolt. It is designed that way and the keel is properly attached to the hull and a gap at towards the aft is expected.

This was told to me by a surveyor and applies to many makes of production boats (look at some of the Grand Soleil keels for instance).

I only say this to offer some comfort to your friend pending his survey which will obviously identify whether bolts need tightening or replacing of if there is flexing in the floor etc.

Good luck to him.

Cheers,

Bob

 

[Blueboatman]

Sorry I just do not buy that. Its the ''well they're all made like that innit mate'' argument.

No way, er IMO !

What is the point in sealing between keel and hull at all if the gap is going to fail and open up?
Presumably as water creeps along the joint line and sits cozily against the keel bolts that is not going to be a problem for someone either?
Light hull, poor cantileverered engineering to 'cover' the lack of an aftermost bolt. Trouble is., when design and build are marginal ( light) some poor bxgger then has to reverse engineer the added strength back into the boat..
I sincerely hope the manufacturer stands behind ( or even better, stands on) the boat in this instance.

 

[Crabman]

Get the boat lifted twice one person inside to see if its the bolts or frames and one person outside .This will tell you where the movement is occuring .Hull laminates or frame laminates . I have had this problem and it is easy to rectify . I used this company to help me. http://intyachts.co.uk/Case2.aspx Hope this helps .

 

[Longshanks]

None of us have all the details here, but it seems to me that Bavaria should stick to what they do best...good value, conservatively designed CRUISING yachts. What the hell is a high aspect deep lead keel doing on such a boat??

Our Bav 34 has a proper cruising keel. Shallow draft iron with a low aspect ratio, flat bottomed bulb and a long root (I can just touch either end with arms outstretched (close on 2.0m). Attached by properly spaced large SS bolts, with backing washers and double nuts. To repeat, it's proper cruising keel that's not dissimilar in concept to the keels you'd see on a Westerly or Sadler in years gone by. It's said in sailing circles " if it looks right, it probably is right"...well ours does and the blade type keels just look wrong on such a boat (and it's not just Bavaria...look at modern Beneteaus).

So what if we don't go to windward in blow as well as our deep keeled sisters. If it bothers me that much, I'll go somewhere else or put the engine on!

Us cruisers need a campaign for proper keels it seems!! Too much emphasis on the racing community IMO...so there!

 

[30boat]

None of us have all the details here, but it seems to me that Bavaria should stick to what they do best...good value, conservatively designed CRUISING yachts. What the hell is a high aspect deep lead keel doing on such a boat??

Our Bav 34 has a proper cruising keel. Shallow draft iron with a low aspect ratio, flat bottomed bulb and a long root (I can just touch either end with arms outstretched (close on 2.0m). Attached by properly spaced large SS bolts, with backing washers and double nuts. To repeat, it's proper cruising keel that's not dissimilar in concept to the keels you'd see on a Westerly or Sadler in years gone by. It's said in sailing circles " if it looks right, it probably is right"...well ours does and the blade type keels just look wrong on such a boat (and it's not just Bavaria...look at modern Beneteaus).

So what if we don't go to windward in blow as well as our deep keeled sisters. If it bothers me that much, I'll go somewhere else or put the engine on!

Us cruisers need a campaign for proper keels it seems!! Too much emphasis on the racing community IMO...so there!

My Fulmar has a conservative keel shape by modern standards and I'm really glad it does.It goes quite well to windward in a blow too.I just choose not to.

 

[bob234]

Sorry I just do not buy that. Its the ''well they're all made like that innit mate'' argument.

No way, er IMO !

What is the point in sealing between keel and hull at all if the gap is going to fail and open up?
Presumably as water creeps along the joint line and sits cozily against the keel bolts that is not going to be a problem for someone either?
Light hull, poor cantileverered engineering to 'cover' the lack of an aftermost bolt. Trouble is., when design and build are marginal ( light) some poor bxgger then has to reverse engineer the added strength back into the boat..
I sincerely hope the manufacturer stands behind ( or even better, stands on) the boat in this instance.

Hi again,

You might be right (I hope not). Your comments are certainly in line with my instincts.

'There all made that way innit' argument should be rightly dismissed if it comes from the manufacturer. I stress that manufacturers have not said that to me though. The comments came from more than one surveyor over the years who had no axe to grind (in fact they might have wanted to protect themselves by saying get the keel off).

The watertight integrity of the keel attachment does not come primarily from the sealant along the outside of the joint. I understand that if (when) the external sealant cracks and water comes in as a result then there is a problem - but it's not the external sealant.

I once had a similar problem with a boat in the mid 90's (non Bavaria). Naturally I felt there must have been a problem despite no groundings. Apparently not on that occasion.

I'm not saying there isn't a problem with this particular Bavaria 39. I haven't seen it and I'm not a surveyor. However I think it worth sharing the advice I've heard on many occasions that a crack in the sealant along the last part of the keel behind the aftmost keelbolts is not always a problem. The good news with the OP's friend is that no water ingress has been reported.

Hopefully we will learn more soon.

Cheers,

Bob

 

[Blueboatman]

For what its worth, my last boat was a 'project' with a relatively racey bolt-on keel, from a mid range US boatbuilder.

I temporarily cut out the inner grp cabin liner and then laminated in stringers, floors, centreline area, rejigged the mast support etc, all to make a usefully stiffer hull.
With new keelbolts as well we then had great sailing and plenty of forestay tension for 'friendly' racing too. And no cracky filler or sealant.

What continues to surprise me, I suppose, is how easy it is at the manufacturing stage to make the keel/hull attachment really pretty solid, so why oh why do manufacturers continue to 'push it' and save , ooh £500 quids worth of material and labour? When it goes wrong, presto it will come back and bite 'em on the bum, as in adverse internet tales that will never, ever go away !

'Bavaria/Match/jokes have inevitably reached urban myth status.

Fingers crossed that this particular one gets indisputably sorted, and quickly, the season is upon us!

 

[Bosun Higgs]

What continues to surprise me, I suppose, is how easy it is at the manufacturing stage to make the keel/hull attachment really pretty solid, so why oh why do manufacturers continue to 'push it' and save , ooh £500 quids worth of material and labour? !

Thats the bit that really surprises me too. I'm not a Bavaria knocker but I would not buy one currently because these keel issues are unacceptable. And its not even £50 of material missed out - its more like £20 to put in another couple of layers of CSM and maybe a web or two. But whether you accept my number or not, its clearly trivial in the context of the price of a new 39 footer.

Personally I suspect the competence of the designers rather than Bav economising

 

[Ubergeekian]

Nothing new, I'm afraid. The original hull/keel join on the Westerly Jouster is frankly pathetic - just a slight thickening of the layup to filled in the internal angle round the external recess where the keel flange bolts. By the time you're an inch away from the keel in any direction it's standard layup with no floors or other stiffening. That's why I spent a week of hard work massively reinforcing mine - I am happy to dry out in her now but I would emphatically not be happy to do so in an unmodified one.

 

[jimmy_the_builder]

Evening all, just a titchy update - my mate has been in touch with Clipper who have said 'no news yet from Bavaria'. However, the chap from Clipper is actually at Bavaria for a meeting at the end of this week, and has apparently promised to bring this issue up. So - fingers crossed for some positive news soon.

Cheers
Jimmy