Courageous
Well-Known Member
Slaming??? Slamming - pounding down onto the surface as opposed to slicing through it like a real thoroughbred.......
Bavaria 34 - Opinions???
- Thread starter Courageous
- Start date
Phoenix of Hamble
Well-Known Member
If you want to argue about the total cost of ownership then that argument fails to take into account the cost of capital tied up.... so doesn't hold water...
if the difference in price is £100k, then you need to allow for the compound interest that £100k would be making over the same period...... which suddenly makes the Bav look a lot cheaper again....
lets be pessimistic, and work on 3%... thats an extra cost for the HR of £34k over 10 years.....
if the difference in price is £100k, then you need to allow for the compound interest that £100k would be making over the same period...... which suddenly makes the Bav look a lot cheaper again....
lets be pessimistic, and work on 3%... thats an extra cost for the HR of £34k over 10 years.....
Aardee
Well-Known Member
Having sailed extensively on club Bav 36's as well as a variety of Oceanis's (Oceani??), I wouldn't make the change either way to improve sailing performance. While the Bav may be a tad quicker in short bursts, it's alarming tendency to round up in all but the lightest airs more than negates any perceived advantage.
As has been said previously, for all the criticisms they're still bloody good at the job they're designed to do - short-to-medium distance sailing in moderate conditions.
Have you look at changing your Oceanis for a First??
As has been said previously, for all the criticisms they're still bloody good at the job they're designed to do - short-to-medium distance sailing in moderate conditions.
Have you look at changing your Oceanis for a First??
Courageous
Well-Known Member
Strangely enough I've never actually looked to replace it with anything up until this "deal of a lifetime" reared it's ugly head...... Am even starting to question my own sanity.... you know - sometimes we just need to go out and indulge in retail therapy? I've never been a gambler per se but have always seemed to spend everything I never had......
Dear Marge...........
Dear Marge...........
charles_reed
Well-Known Member
Slamming
Try windward work in the Med or in the Solent with wind aagainsst tide.
It happens in ALL lightweight, form-stable boats without exception.
Try windward work in the Med or in the Solent with wind aagainsst tide.
It happens in ALL lightweight, form-stable boats without exception.
G
Guest
Guest
I\'m surprised ...
That you would want to replace an Oceanis with a Bav .... a smaller one as well.
Only criticism of a Ben I looked at for an Arab buyer some years ago - was the immense forward sail locker that reduced the forward cabin space seriously .....
Anyway .... I think thought and a few changes on present boat ought to put her right and speed her up a bit !!
That you would want to replace an Oceanis with a Bav .... a smaller one as well.
Only criticism of a Ben I looked at for an Arab buyer some years ago - was the immense forward sail locker that reduced the forward cabin space seriously .....
Anyway .... I think thought and a few changes on present boat ought to put her right and speed her up a bit !!
Sailfree
Well-Known Member
Is it a deal of a lifetime cause the person is desparate to sell the Bav (marina fees coming up of just seriously short of readies) and do you need to sell the Ben first? I trust you are not comparing what you THINK you can get the Bav for against what you THINK you can sell the Ben for.
The true value of any boat is what someone will readily pay for it. The true cost of any boat is the difference between buying and selling plus either financing costs or loss of opportunity on the money tied up in the boat.
If the Bav gives you a newer boat without too much extra money go for it. As others have said I think your biggest current problem is the in mast furling. You will probably never recoup any money spent on changing this.
If you really want a better sailing boat a First, or Elan 33 or Dufour 34 will give better performance than the the Bav.
The true value of any boat is what someone will readily pay for it. The true cost of any boat is the difference between buying and selling plus either financing costs or loss of opportunity on the money tied up in the boat.
If the Bav gives you a newer boat without too much extra money go for it. As others have said I think your biggest current problem is the in mast furling. You will probably never recoup any money spent on changing this.
If you really want a better sailing boat a First, or Elan 33 or Dufour 34 will give better performance than the the Bav.
Courageous
Well-Known Member
Re: I\'m surprised ...
Smaller? well 400mm in the beam, but she's apparently a few hundred mil longer. Why would they make a 36 foot boat and call it a 34 I wonder??? Kinda goes against the grain somewhat. This Bav is 4 yrs newer and one owner unlike my ex charter Ben. Take ya point though! Am growing to learn that I'm probably better sticking with what I have.........
Smaller? well 400mm in the beam, but she's apparently a few hundred mil longer. Why would they make a 36 foot boat and call it a 34 I wonder??? Kinda goes against the grain somewhat. This Bav is 4 yrs newer and one owner unlike my ex charter Ben. Take ya point though! Am growing to learn that I'm probably better sticking with what I have.........
boguing
Well-Known Member
Re: Ben ...... sailing quality ?
Back to basics here.
Comparing eggs and eggs means getting out the specs and doing some number-crunching. Your Oceanis vs the Bavaria.
Performance under sail.
Is solely dependant on:-
Sail area to dispacement and sail area to length - for power purposes. The displacement one is primary, length secondary.
Stability. Ballast weight:Total displacement gives overall stability, Sail Area
SPL gives a 'speed' factor.
Give a score to each and compare boats.
But, make allowance for a bulbed keel. Gets the weight lower and makes a big difference to the stability.
Bet the Bavaria wins. The Oceanii of that age were severely under ballasted - as low as 30% (BallastSPL).
Personally, if I were looking for a performance boat, I would want a 50% ballastSPL ratio.
Why? Because it means that the builder has taken trouble to get the hull weight down (expensive glass, resins etc..), and I'd wager that you'd find a lead fin under it. (Less drag, but much more expensive).
Hydrodynamics. How much does the average volume manufacturer allow their Naval Architects to spend on design refinement? Probably more than they used to, but still not a lot. However, the bigger the firm the more likely that their experience will rub off. So you probably get a better set of keel and rudder foils than you might with even the all-hallowed HR. From a sailing point of view this is critical. Boats whose keels stall when you tack aren't fun, neither are those whose rudders ventilate/stall just when you really need them.
Lastly. Bavaria have had an unfortunate time with their Match 42 keels. Their PR has been a case study in how not to do it.
Do they wilfully build dangerous boats? Grow up chaps.
Back to basics here.
Comparing eggs and eggs means getting out the specs and doing some number-crunching. Your Oceanis vs the Bavaria.
Performance under sail.
Is solely dependant on:-
Sail area to dispacement and sail area to length - for power purposes. The displacement one is primary, length secondary.
Stability. Ballast weight:Total displacement gives overall stability, Sail Area
SPL gives a 'speed' factor.Give a score to each and compare boats.
But, make allowance for a bulbed keel. Gets the weight lower and makes a big difference to the stability.
Bet the Bavaria wins. The Oceanii of that age were severely under ballasted - as low as 30% (Ballast
SPL).Personally, if I were looking for a performance boat, I would want a 50% ballast
SPL ratio.Why? Because it means that the builder has taken trouble to get the hull weight down (expensive glass, resins etc..), and I'd wager that you'd find a lead fin under it. (Less drag, but much more expensive).
Hydrodynamics. How much does the average volume manufacturer allow their Naval Architects to spend on design refinement? Probably more than they used to, but still not a lot. However, the bigger the firm the more likely that their experience will rub off. So you probably get a better set of keel and rudder foils than you might with even the all-hallowed HR. From a sailing point of view this is critical. Boats whose keels stall when you tack aren't fun, neither are those whose rudders ventilate/stall just when you really need them.
Lastly. Bavaria have had an unfortunate time with their Match 42 keels. Their PR has been a case study in how not to do it.
Do they wilfully build dangerous boats? Grow up chaps.
Gypsy
Well-Known Member
Re: Ben ...... sailing quality ?
There is much that can be said from each side of this debate but you do yourself a dis-service with your incorrect claims about Bav only adding the HIN number at shipping time. If you look closely you will see the HIN is embedded into the hull at the time of layup. It is part of the gelcoat. It can't be just added later.
Please stick to the facts.
There is much that can be said from each side of this debate but you do yourself a dis-service with your incorrect claims about Bav only adding the HIN number at shipping time. If you look closely you will see the HIN is embedded into the hull at the time of layup. It is part of the gelcoat. It can't be just added later.
Please stick to the facts.
G
Guest
Guest
HIN ....
I don't know which Bavs - you are talking about and I don't doubt your observation .....
But having been involved in discussions on this very subject after a claim by a new owner .. it was shown quite clearly that when boat was lifted on transport trailer date and HIN were made to that boat then. The boat was found to be more than 6 months older when information was pressed for.
Let me correct my mis-wording ..... the HIN may be cut in / laid up - but is not date registered except in internal factory records .... YOU as a buyer have no way of knwoing when that boat was ACTUALLY laid up and then stored - the paperwork delivered to my pal was dated the day of contract NOT build .... false data. It is common in the boat industry in fact.
The one who gave us the clues leading to the information is involved in the transport of these boats to various areas and his company has confirmed this on all boats they haul out of there ....
As I say - you may believe the HIN as showing actual build date ... but there are numerous examples that this is not so ....
Why not ask the question .... Was your Bav one of the loads that stood in fields going green and mouldy waiting for buyers ? Was yours subject to the valeting required to make her look new again immediately before lift onto transporter ?
I suggest that you may like to check that out .......
I don't know which Bavs - you are talking about and I don't doubt your observation .....
But having been involved in discussions on this very subject after a claim by a new owner .. it was shown quite clearly that when boat was lifted on transport trailer date and HIN were made to that boat then. The boat was found to be more than 6 months older when information was pressed for.
Let me correct my mis-wording ..... the HIN may be cut in / laid up - but is not date registered except in internal factory records .... YOU as a buyer have no way of knwoing when that boat was ACTUALLY laid up and then stored - the paperwork delivered to my pal was dated the day of contract NOT build .... false data. It is common in the boat industry in fact.
The one who gave us the clues leading to the information is involved in the transport of these boats to various areas and his company has confirmed this on all boats they haul out of there ....
As I say - you may believe the HIN as showing actual build date ... but there are numerous examples that this is not so ....
Why not ask the question .... Was your Bav one of the loads that stood in fields going green and mouldy waiting for buyers ? Was yours subject to the valeting required to make her look new again immediately before lift onto transporter ?
I suggest that you may like to check that out .......
pvb
Well-Known Member
Are you sure?....
For boats built in the EU, the CIN (Craft Identification Number) includes a code for the month and year of manufacture. The CIN is normally part of the hull gelcoat. If that's done by Bavaria, how can they subsequently change the month and year code?
For boats built in the EU, the CIN (Craft Identification Number) includes a code for the month and year of manufacture. The CIN is normally part of the hull gelcoat. If that's done by Bavaria, how can they subsequently change the month and year code?
Gypsy
Well-Known Member
Re: HIN ....
My personal experince is with my own boat but just take a look at any Bav hull from at least 2002 (the year of build of mine) and it is obvious to blind freddy that the number cannot be tampered with easily - it is part of the gelcoat. As PVB says there is an accepted code for the HIN/CIN which includes the month, year and manufacturer as well as other data. As to whether others may try to misrepresent when a hull was built in other paprework that is another matter but this number protocol is no secret. My Bavaria owners manual includes the number and an explanation of the code so I don't know where this can be played with.
But taking another look at the point about boats in a field going mouldy, I don't doubt that is true to a point. The Bav and other high volume factories operate throughout the year in order to achieve their consistent volume. They expect their dealers to order ahead and take some as inventory but over winter there is inevitably a buildup of stock which is then depleted as the sailing season approaches. The same occurs with cars. I know my boat took only about 2 weeks from the first layer of gelcoat until it was pushed out the end of the line - quite amazing, but I did order it 12 months ahead of the agreed delivery date of January and it was delivered to me in Antibes at the end of February with a Jan code and no mould.
However, whatever the point you are trying to make is not helped by making unsupported claims of false numbering of these important HIN/CIN numbers.
I made a reference to car manufacturing earlier. I think all buyers of these mass production boats must revert to their car buying instincts. If you make a special order for a car you can expect it to come to you within weeks of production but when dealers make special offers, particularly as a new model is approaching one must always assume there will be stocks being rundown. Since boats are far more seasonal one can logically assume there will be "winter" build boats which are going to be offered with special deals.
I do not make excuses or apologies for Ben/Bav/Jen, we have to recognise the way boat manufacturing has moved towards what we have come acustomed to with cars. It is a volume business and if there is a deal which seems too good to be true, it probably is! Everyone should be ready to ask the hard questions.
My personal experince is with my own boat but just take a look at any Bav hull from at least 2002 (the year of build of mine) and it is obvious to blind freddy that the number cannot be tampered with easily - it is part of the gelcoat. As PVB says there is an accepted code for the HIN/CIN which includes the month, year and manufacturer as well as other data. As to whether others may try to misrepresent when a hull was built in other paprework that is another matter but this number protocol is no secret. My Bavaria owners manual includes the number and an explanation of the code so I don't know where this can be played with.
But taking another look at the point about boats in a field going mouldy, I don't doubt that is true to a point. The Bav and other high volume factories operate throughout the year in order to achieve their consistent volume. They expect their dealers to order ahead and take some as inventory but over winter there is inevitably a buildup of stock which is then depleted as the sailing season approaches. The same occurs with cars. I know my boat took only about 2 weeks from the first layer of gelcoat until it was pushed out the end of the line - quite amazing, but I did order it 12 months ahead of the agreed delivery date of January and it was delivered to me in Antibes at the end of February with a Jan code and no mould.
However, whatever the point you are trying to make is not helped by making unsupported claims of false numbering of these important HIN/CIN numbers.
I made a reference to car manufacturing earlier. I think all buyers of these mass production boats must revert to their car buying instincts. If you make a special order for a car you can expect it to come to you within weeks of production but when dealers make special offers, particularly as a new model is approaching one must always assume there will be stocks being rundown. Since boats are far more seasonal one can logically assume there will be "winter" build boats which are going to be offered with special deals.
I do not make excuses or apologies for Ben/Bav/Jen, we have to recognise the way boat manufacturing has moved towards what we have come acustomed to with cars. It is a volume business and if there is a deal which seems too good to be true, it probably is! Everyone should be ready to ask the hard questions.
G
Guest
Guest
Re: HIN .... search back and you will find previous posts ...
Previous posts about this. Also others information supporting the practice.
The method used to do the act - is in fact not that difficult .... suffice it to say - What the eye sees may not be all that is there ... no-one ever said illegal or breaking any reg's etc. That is not claimed or suggested .... but I'll leave you to search back through the archives ....
It caused a short scandal that was quashed as fast as possible by the parties concerned ... as it to being sorted and gone .... ??
Previous posts about this. Also others information supporting the practice.
The method used to do the act - is in fact not that difficult .... suffice it to say - What the eye sees may not be all that is there ... no-one ever said illegal or breaking any reg's etc. That is not claimed or suggested .... but I'll leave you to search back through the archives ....
It caused a short scandal that was quashed as fast as possible by the parties concerned ... as it to being sorted and gone .... ??
andy_wilson
Well-Known Member
Doubtful...
..Unless the the money you use to buy a HR at 3 X the price comes interest free, or alternatively the money the Bav. owner has left over to place on deposit earns zero interest.
..Unless the the money you use to buy a HR at 3 X the price comes interest free, or alternatively the money the Bav. owner has left over to place on deposit earns zero interest.
Wayne14
New Member
Hello. Do anyone owns Bavaria 34 (http://www.dn-nautica.com/eng/bavaria_34.html) and is from Croatia or was in Croatia? Thnx
Last edited:
richardbrennan
Well-Known Member
When I was in the market for a boat in 2000 I looked at and sailed a new Bavaria 34. However, the test sail that took place in boisterous conditions in the Solent put me off completely. I eventually bought and still own a two year old Westerly Ocean 33, which I can assure you sails the pants off a Bav 34, even though it cost me £20,000 more than a new fully loaded Bav with teak decks and the lot. I have never regretted this decision although the Bav had roomier accommodation and a much bigger cockpit, which is great until you want to brace your legs on the opposite side! So if you want a boat that sails well, there's an O33 for sale on the WOA website at present; go for a test sail but don't blame me if you're smitten! However, the only thing one can say for certain is that everybody's priorities are different!!
nigelmercier
RIP
- Joined
- 20 Jun 2007
- Messages
- 16,234
- Location
- Live in Kent, boat in Canary Islands
Holy Necrobump Batman!
dom
Well-Known Member
Welcome to 2015 guys! :encouragement:
charles_reed
Well-Known Member
Designed by J&J a Slovenian design company who also design Elans, Dufours, Grand Soleil - in fact nearly all the so-called AWB - in 1999.
Ideal, IMHO, for keeping in a marina as a "weekend cottage" and going out for a comfy family sail. Worked on one and found the QAS and fittings quite good quality.
Extremely easy to handle, under motor in a confined marina. Sail reasonably well, but relies on form-stability rather than ballast, so not happy in big seas.
Plenty of room down below for entertaining, but probably a little too open plan to be safe in a seaway.
Like all boats with a high aspect keel, keel-fixings can be a weak point though, with all reports of keel failure on such boats (high aspect fin keels) there has been grounding damage or incompetent modification.
Generally I'd rate them better from a QAS point of view than their French competitors.
Decks are thin and can flex (under the overweight), but the boats appear good for purpose.
I will point out I don't own one and have no desire to do so - but fear they have a number of detractors, who mainly seem to voice highly subjective negative opinions.
Ideal, IMHO, for keeping in a marina as a "weekend cottage" and going out for a comfy family sail. Worked on one and found the QAS and fittings quite good quality.
Extremely easy to handle, under motor in a confined marina. Sail reasonably well, but relies on form-stability rather than ballast, so not happy in big seas.
Plenty of room down below for entertaining, but probably a little too open plan to be safe in a seaway.
Like all boats with a high aspect keel, keel-fixings can be a weak point though, with all reports of keel failure on such boats (high aspect fin keels) there has been grounding damage or incompetent modification.
Generally I'd rate them better from a QAS point of view than their French competitors.
Decks are thin and can flex (under the overweight), but the boats appear good for purpose.
I will point out I don't own one and have no desire to do so - but fear they have a number of detractors, who mainly seem to voice highly subjective negative opinions.
