Battery Upgrade Advice

[scr0che]

Yacht batteries, house bank is at the end of it's life so time to upgrade, but I'm at a loss, so much information, hard to take it all in . Here is my scenario:

* Battery Banks: 1 x engine start 56Ah, 1 x bow thruster, 110Ah, 3 x House 110Ah - all are FLA, maintenance free
* Alternator (60A), fitted to a volvo MD22A 55Hp
* 300 amp battery isolator (SIC Divisione)
* 25 amp TecSup premium charger
* 100A dual input VSR

This is my intention and understanding of the components:

* Replace all 5 batteries with AGM (carbon ones seem to be the way to go), boosting the house bank with 1 extra, matching roughly the Ah of each - so 56, 110, 4 x 110
-> I should not mix FLA with AGM as the charge voltages are different
-> Any recommendations?

* Replace the battery charger for something like a Victron Phoenix, 50a, as it needs the higher voltage for AGM batteries, and it should be a 'smart' battery charger
-> any recommendations?
-> does the new charger need to cater for the total battery capacity (i.e. 600Ah)? Or just the max bank (440Ah)?
-> should I look for a charger with a single output or 3 outputs so I can connect it independently to all 3 banks?
-> what is the VSR doing for me? It sits on the cable going to the engine start battery, so is it connecting the engine start and house banks together?
-> can the VSR be removed if I go for a multiple output charger and connect it to all 3 banks?
-> or is the VSR related to the alternator/isolator? It's a bit of a mystery to me.

* Will the alternator and isolator be able to charge all 3 banks? Is the isolator big enough for my proposed system
-> It looks to me like the battery charger is only charging the house bank and the engine start battery?
-> It also looks to me like the alternator/isolator connects to all 3 banks, and that is therefore the only means of charging the bow thruster

Is what I propose a reasonable start? Are my assumptions correct? Hs anyone else pondered over this kind of upgrade recently?

 

[pvb]

* Replace all 5 batteries with AGM (carbon ones seem to be the way to go), boosting the house bank with 1 extra, matching roughly the Ah of each - so 56, 110, 4 x 110
-> I should not mix FLA with AGM as the charge voltages are different
-> Any recommendations?

Most AGM batteries can be charged at the same voltages as maintenance free batteries, so you don't necessarily have to have all AGMs, but AGMs are good batteries so you might as well. Anything with "carbon" in the name seems to attract a price premium, are you sure you want to pay the extra? For your starter and thruster batteries, I'd suggest there's no point. Whether your house battery usage is such that you'd get value from more expensive batteries is something only you can judge. As for brand, I like Exide, but Hankook AGMs are often recommended on here and are reasonably priced.

* Replace the battery charger for something like a Victron Phoenix, 50a, as it needs the higher voltage for AGM batteries, and it should be a 'smart' battery charger
-> any recommendations?
-> does the new charger need to cater for the total battery capacity (i.e. 600Ah)? Or just the max bank (440Ah)?
-> should I look for a charger with a single output or 3 outputs so I can connect it independently to all 3 banks?
-> what is the VSR doing for me? It sits on the cable going to the engine start battery, so is it connecting the engine start and house banks together?
-> can the VSR be removed if I go for a multiple output charger and connect it to all 3 banks?
-> or is the VSR related to the alternator/isolator? It's a bit of a mystery to me.

Most chargers will be fine for AGM batteries. Victron chargers are well-respected and you could go for a Bluetooth-enabled one which lets you check what's happening via a smartphone app (I find this useful with my Victron charger). The charger will really only be charging your house bank, as the engine and thruster batteries will be fully charged normally. But a 50A charger would help reduce charging time from a significant discharge. I'd suggest a Victron Smart IP43 12/50 (3) charger. This has 3 isolated outputs. Its "normal" mode gives 14.4v absorption, 13.8v float and 13.2v storage, which would be ideal for AGMs. As the charger has 3 outputs, there should be no need for a VSR. And it has Bluetooth for use with the Victron app.

If you want to spend less on a charger, and are happy with a 30A charging current, the Victron Blue Smart IP22 12/30 (3) works well. Same basic specs, 3 isolated outputs, Bluetooth, etc, but 30A max charge. I have one of these and it's quiet and efficient.

* Will the alternator and isolator be able to charge all 3 banks? Is the isolator big enough for my proposed system
-> It looks to me like the battery charger is only charging the house bank and the engine start battery?
-> It also looks to me like the alternator/isolator connects to all 3 banks, and that is therefore the only means of charging the bow thruster

You haven't said which SIC isolator you have, but if it has one input and 3 outputs, it ought to be connected to the start, thruster and house batteries. In this way, your alternator will charge everything. Your existing charger may only be connected to the start and house batteries, but if you fit a new 3-output charger it will solve the problem and you can sell the VSR on eBay!

 

[scr0che]

Many thanks for the response, most helpful.

Most AGM batteries can be charged at the same voltages as maintenance free batteries, so you don't necessarily have to have all AGMs, but AGMs are good batteries so you might as well. Anything with "carbon" in the name seems to attract a price premium, are you sure you want to pay the extra? For your starter and thruster batteries, I'd suggest there's no point. Whether your house battery usage is such that you'd get value from more expensive batteries is something only you can judge. As for brand, I like Exide, but Hankook AGMs are often recommended on here and are reasonably priced.

Thruster and starter batteries I agree, a standard AGM will suffice. For the house bank, lead carbon are in the range £160-260, or even these new Victron super cycle ones, so I'm happy to go with those - better partial state-of-charge performance, more cycles, and higher efficiency. I've always worked on the basis of buy the best you can afford, reviews look good.

Most chargers will be fine for AGM batteries. Victron chargers are well-respected and you could go for a Bluetooth-enabled one which lets you check what's happening via a smartphone app (I find this useful with my Victron charger). The charger will really only be charging your house bank, as the engine and thruster batteries will be fully charged normally. But a 50A charger would help reduce charging time from a significant discharge. I'd suggest a Victron Smart IP43 12/50 (3) charger. This has 3 isolated outputs. Its "normal" mode gives 14.4v absorption, 13.8v float and 13.2v storage, which would be ideal for AGMs. As the charger has 3 outputs, there should be no need for a VSR. And it has Bluetooth for use with the Victron app.

If you want to spend less on a charger, and are happy with a 30A charging current, the Victron Blue Smart IP22 12/30 (3) works well. Same basic specs, 3 isolated outputs, Bluetooth, etc, but 30A max charge. I have one of these and it's quiet and efficient.

Sound advice on the Victron Smart 12/50, 3 output. I see it requires a fuse close to each battery bank? Is the max cable size 16mm into the unit from the battery? Will that be sufficient to go around 10m to the bow thruster battery?

You haven't said which SIC isolator you have, but if it has one input and 3 outputs, it ought to be connected to the start, thruster and house batteries. In this way, your alternator will charge everything. Your existing charger may only be connected to the start and house batteries, but if you fit a new 3-output charger it will solve the problem and you can sell the VSR on eBay!

The isolator is a 'SIC Divisione Elettronica', it says 'Battery Isolator 300Amp' on the front has 5 studs arranged vertically, the alternator is connect to the lowest stud, with 2 positiive cables on the B3 and one on the B2 stud. It's just that it states 300Amp on the device which makes me wonder if a bigger one is needed for all the batteries - 400 + 100 + 60 Ah.

 

[pvb]

Sound advice on the Victron Smart 12/50, 3 output. I see it requires a fuse close to each battery bank? Is the max cable size 16mm into the unit from the battery? Will that be sufficient to go around 10m to the bow thruster battery?

More than adequate.

The isolator is a 'SIC Divisione Elettronica', it says 'Battery Isolator 300Amp' on the front has 5 studs arranged vertically, the alternator is connect to the lowest stud, with 2 positiive cables on the B3 and one on the B2 stud. It's just that it states 300Amp on the device which makes me wonder if a bigger one is needed for all the batteries - 400 + 100 + 60 Ah.

You're confusing current (A) with capacity (Ah). The 300A rating on the isolator refers to the maximum current it can handle; it has nothing to do with the capacity of the batteries.

If it has 5 studs, that's presumably one input and 4 outputs, so you can use 3 of the outputs for your 3 separate battery circuits.

 

[affinite]

Most AGM batteries can be charged at the same voltages as maintenance free batteries, so you don't necessarily have to have all AGMs, but AGMs are good batteries so you might as well. Anything with "carbon" in the name seems to attract a price premium, are you sure you want to pay the extra? For your starter and thruster batteries, I'd suggest there's no point. Whether your house battery usage is such that you'd get value from more expensive batteries is something only you can judge. As for brand, I like Exide, but Hankook AGMs are often recommended on here and are reasonably priced.





Most chargers will be fine for AGM batteries. Victron chargers are well-respected and you could go for a Bluetooth-enabled one which lets you check what's happening via a smartphone app (I find this useful with my Victron charger). The charger will really only be charging your house bank, as the engine and thruster batteries will be fully charged normally. But a 50A charger would help reduce charging time from a significant discharge. I'd suggest a Victron Smart IP43 12/50 (3) charger. This has 3 isolated outputs. Its "normal" mode gives 14.4v absorption, 13.8v float and 13.2v storage, which would be ideal for AGMs. As the charger has 3 outputs, there should be no need for a VSR. And it has Bluetooth for use with the Victron app.

If you want to spend less on a charger, and are happy with a 30A charging current, the Victron Blue Smart IP22 12/30 (3) works well. Same basic specs, 3 isolated outputs, Bluetooth, etc, but 30A max charge. I have one of these and it's quiet and efficient.



You haven't said which SIC isolator you have, but if it has one input and 3 outputs, it ought to be connected to the start, thruster and house batteries. In this way, your alternator will charge everything. Your existing charger may only be connected to the start and house batteries, but if you fit a new 3-output charger it will solve the problem and you can sell the VSR on eBay!

pvb
I'm in a similar position to OP and, having replaced all batteries this year, Im now considering a major charger upgrade.
I like the look of that Victron charger you've recommended so I hope OP doesnt mind if I jump in with a quick side question.
If I switch on the charger to charge a depleted house bank but fully charged start and thruster battery I assume the Victron will just float the charged batteries whilst using the 3/5 stage profile for the house bank ?
Do the 3 outputs operate independently when it comes to charge profiles ?
Can it charge mixed battery chemistries ?
(I have a house bank with Trojan FLA requiring 14.8v Absorption and SLA Start and Thruster requiring 14.4v Absorption)

Thanks

 

[pvb]

pvb
I'm in a similar position to OP and, having replaced all batteries this year, Im now considering a major charger upgrade.
I like the look of that Victron charger you've recommended so I hope OP doesnt mind if I jump in with a quick side question.
If I switch on the charger to charge a depleted house bank but fully charged start and thruster battery I assume the Victron will just float the charged batteries whilst using the 3/5 stage profile for the house bank ?
Do the 3 outputs operate independently when it comes to charge profiles ?
Can it charge mixed battery chemistries ?
(I have a house bank with Trojan FLA requiring 14.8v Absorption and SLA Start and Thruster requiring 14.4v Absorption)

All 3 outlets deliver the same voltages, so it can't give you absorption voltage on one outlet and float voltage on the other two. Similarly, you can't get different absorption voltages between the outlets.

This is essentially no different from what happens when the alternator is charging.

 

[Lucy52]

Would putting a separate cheaper ctek charger on the start and thruster batteries be a better way then?

 

[PaulRainbow]

Would putting a separate cheaper ctek charger on the start and thruster batteries be a better way then?

No, because it will only have a single output.

But, fitting a lower amperage Victron charger would work.

 

[affinite]

pvb & PaulR Thanks,
I already have an (underpowered) 3 output charger which I'll use to charge the Thruster and Start batteries and buy a new 50 or 60A 14.8v charger (Victron or Sterling) for the house

 

[pvb]

pvb & PaulR Thanks,
I already have an (underpowered) 3 output charger which I'll use to charge the Thruster and Start batteries and buy a new 50 or 60A 14.8v charger (Victron or Sterling) for the house

50/60A chargers aren't cheap. You'll find that the Sterling Pro Charge Ultra is cheaper than a similar Victron, but I reckon the Victron quality is better. Also note that Victron have a "1+1" version of the Smart IP43 charger, which features a separate, slightly lower voltage, output for the start battery which is limited to 3A charging. This could be of interest.

Victron Energy Phoenix Smart IP43 Charger 12/50(1+1) 230V - PSC125051085 – Battery Megastore

 

[affinite]

50/60A chargers aren't cheap. You'll find that the Sterling Pro Charge Ultra is cheaper than a similar Victron, but I reckon the Victron quality is better. Also note that Victron have a "1+1" version of the Smart IP43 charger, which features a separate, slightly lower voltage, output for the start battery which is limited to 3A charging. This could be of interest.

Victron Energy Phoenix Smart IP43 Charger 12/50(1+1) 230V - PSC125051085 – Battery Megastore

Thanks
Yes I've already decided to change my MPPT charger for a Victron next season so I'll probably go for a Phoenix 1+1/50A set for 14.8v absorption and dedicated to the house bank as well

Incidentally, I must admit I'm still trying to get my head around your previous comment that all outputs on the 3-output Victron run at same voltage.
I now understand the bit about not having different absorption voltages on the outputs, which is why I'll probably buy a separate charger just for the house bank, but if the charger isn't smart enough to recognize a fully charged Start battery and possibly a fully charged Thruster battery as well, doesn't that mean that when Bulk/Absorption charging depleted house bank the Start and Thruster are being overcharged?

 

[pvb]

Incidentally, I must admit I'm still trying to get my head around your previous comment that all outputs on the 3-output Victron run at same voltage.
I now understand the bit about not having different absorption voltages on the outputs, which is why I'll probably buy a separate charger just for the house bank, but if the charger isn't smart enough to recognize a fully charged Start battery and possibly a fully charged Thruster battery as well, doesn't that mean that when Bulk/Absorption charging depleted house bank the Start and Thruster are being overcharged?

They're not being overcharged; batteries only accept current according to their charge state and the charging voltage. Your alternator most probably puts out the same voltage all the time, and this doesn't harm your start battery.

 

[scr0che]

Is anyone able to advise on what this component is, I think it's a shunt as was connected to a NASA BM-1 battery monitor:

 

[pvb]

Is anyone able to advise on what this component is, I think it's a shunt as was connected to a NASA BM-1 battery monitor:

Yes, it's a 100A shunt.

 

[scr0che]

Just an update on what I've done based on the advice above:

Replaced all my wet batteries with AGM, used Exide EP900 - 4x house bank, 1x bow thruster, and then an EM1000 for the start battery. Put in a Victron IP43 Phoenix charger, 100/30 (1+1, trickle to start battery), with a BMV-712 battery monitor, replaced a lot of older battery cables, guessing some are 30 years old, got them custom made by ECS - electrical car services - excellent service. Installed a 200amp ANP fuse and followed some schematics from the Victron site for cabling and connections, an excellent resource.

Installation wise, with custom cables to length straight forward, as were the victron componets, all 3 bluetooth although on Android not got that connected yet, ran out of time. Think the trick is to turn on location services on the device as well as bluetooth, then use the app to connect, will try again when next on board. Build a new battery box for the house bank, 12mm marine ply, was extending to 4 batteries from 3, all fits in lovely.

Thanks all!

 

[pvb]

Thanks for the update! Sounds a good result.