Battery capacity - Elecsol

[Chris_Robb]

I installed a new elecsol 220 AH battery in June. During our recent cruise, I could only charge from my 4KVA generator as the alternator had gone AWOL.

So because we only charged once a day, I could see what the start open voltage of the battery was, the amps consumed (NASA BM1) and the voltage next morning before we charged again.

A typical days consumption was 40 amps, dropping the battery voltage from 12.7 to 12.1. Each day we charged up to 14.4 V and then switched off - which normally gavce an open voltage of around 12.7.

Electsol give this guide -
12.80 100%
12.40 50%
10.70 flat

So from 12.80 to 12.40 I would have expected to draw 100 amps.

It looks like this bloody great battery is only holding 100AH - What should I do next? - as Electsol are not very helpfull in this direction. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

 

[captainslarty]

Hi Sir
Basically you are not charging the battert to its capacity. After reaching 14.4 it needs to be further charged at preferably a constant voltage. apx 13.6
How exactly are you charing via the genset ?

 

[HenryB]

As I understand it, charging a lead acid battery to 14.4 volts is the safe method as used in most cars because it reduces the chance of gassing but results in the battery only being charged to 75% capacity. The smart chargers used on many boats will take the voltage up to around 15.3 volts in order to get near maximum capacity. The Elecsol web site is confusing in that they recommend charging to be stopped at 14.4 volts but their technical page shows details of their battery performance after being charged to 15.6 volts. A good smart charger will improve on the results that you are getting.

 

[Anonymous]

First of all, lots of bad info in the two posts above. 14.4V is the maximum you ever want to charge at unless you are going for really fast charging which will cost gallons of water. Even at 14.4V you will gas in time. Normally a modern charger will charge to 14.4V, hold until the current drops to some preset level such as 8A, then hold again for 20 mins or so then fall back to 13.6V. However, what you need to know is the charging current when you turn it off at 14.V. If it is less than 8 or 10 Amps then it should be fully charged. If it is still charging up at 20 or more Amps, then it is not.

Can we establish the answer to that before going any further? i.e. what current in Amps is the charger still charging at when you stop?

 

[orizaba]

a few points to ask
what was the output of your charger,just because your battery went up to14.4 volts does not mean it was fully charged,unless you float charge a battery you will rarely charge it to more than 80% of capacity.i would have thought that after charging you would have had somthing like 13v plus.if the battery is wet cell it will take a faster charge but gell batteries will not.so i would suspect that is part of your problem
if possible get it fully charged ,then see how it behaves,one other thing the voltages you are giving are i assume with loads on them,the only accurate way to tell is to charge it disconnect it from power let it settle ,check charge use it then let it settle before taking a discharged reading.
the figure they give of 10.70 flat seems to low to me normally i would expect it to be 12.1 v
battery charging etc can get a bit complex but there are some good books that explain in detail,
i'd reccomend nigel calders boatowners and mechanical bible'loads of info and you never know you may have been able to cure the alternator problem

 

[captainslarty]

[ QUOTE ]
First of all, lots of bad info in the two posts above. 14.4V is the maximum you ever want to charge at unless you are going for really fast charging which will cost gallons of water. Even at 14.4V you will gas in time. Normally a modern charger will charge to 14.4V, hold until the current drops to some preset level such as 8A, then hold again for 20 mins or so then fall back to 13.6V.

[/ QUOTE ]

Err /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif what bad info ?
Firstly, not true on the 14.4, depends on the battery type and charger capability.
I charge my trojans initially at 14.8, then bulk, then abosorbtion at 13.6. Higher than the 14.8 would cause problems unless on a desulphation cycle, however, it is usually only as a stop gap measure.

 

[Anonymous]

[ QUOTE ]
depends on the battery type

[/ QUOTE ]See thread title
[ QUOTE ]
and charger capability.

[/ QUOTE ]Not in the context of the question

 

[captainslarty]

ho hum..
Well, there is absolutely no reason the battery in question cant be charged at higher than 14.4, it is more a matter of temperature, most modern chargers include temp sensors, the battery is not sealed, it is ´maintnence free - it will still need topping up occasionaly, certainly if used in hot weather, and, it has the facility to top up.
As for charger capability, as I said, more down to charger capability, a good quality charger is no problem. The manufacturer aims this battery more at a motor home market and most users are expected to be using a standard alt reg.

Perhaps you should speak to the makers of chargers who will happilly discus this with you by email.


Anyways, thats not helping the poster. Which, as I said at the beginning, and the manufacturer also says, he is not charging to potential. The use of a genset is a stopgap measure.

Ask Balmar what they would recommend if you like ?, or Sterling, or Mastervolt etc..
/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

 

[halcyon]

First thing to concider is that a battery has three operating voltages, no load, on charge, and on load. A battery that has stood for a time 6 hours say, would give very approximatley, and depending on type, 12.0 volt 12.8 volt flat to full. a battery pulling around 5-10% battery capacity load, ( 5-10 amp for 100ah ) would give 11.0 - 12.4 volt 10 % - 100%. A flat battery on charge will be 13.0 volt a fully charged battery can be around 15.6 volt. Due to gassing we do not use the high voltage, peaking at 14.6 / 14.8 volt.
So depending on state of load / use when you measure your 12.1 volt you could be upto 70 % plus charged. From your information you are probably creating a problem from nothing.
The above is very simplistic, and depends on battery type, use, charging system, but is a reasonable rule of thumb.
You need to do more accurate measurements, or use a hydrometer.

I thought the reason for fitting a NASA monitor was to tell you amp hour status ?

Brian

 

[Anonymous]

[ QUOTE ]
The manufacturer aims this battery ...

[/ QUOTE ]I suspect that the people who market these batteries have nothing to do with their manufacture - aside from making sticky labels. The refused to let me visit their factory back in 2005 - very nasty, very rude people they were. Others here have posted similar experiences.

 

[captainslarty]

Its a shame when you get that sort of response from them. There are so many ´new´ideas marketted to people then little support or advise. I must confess I DO like the trojans. The 6v milemaster 225. a very very good battery. bloody expensive in Spain though. mine are from the uk at a very reasonable price. Mind you /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif ripping the galley floor up a few years back to build the box was no fun, also the cabling upgrades.. anyways. If you got that response from them I will note to avoid them
Joe.

 

[Anonymous]

Certainly Trojans have a superb reputation but one chap ordered Trojans for delivery to Spain in early May and one of the batteries was defective on delivery - not good, rather worrying. I would have fitted Trojans last time, but they simply could not have been made to fit so I went for the best brand I could get that would (Varta).

 

[captainslarty]

Ya know, there was a chap in Galicia ordered 2 trojans on my advice, one of them was defective. Strange thing was the case was the same but filler caps different from mine and all the others I have seen. Also looked a slightly different casecolour........ I wonder...... /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Maybe some chinese copy /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif
Dont know really, all I can say is I have had no issues with them at all.. Topping up can be fun, but the 10 litres of deionized we carry can always be drunk in an emergency.
In the states they are dirt cheap, in FL especially as they are used in most golf carts. and there are MANY carts over their. Perhaps it may be best to avoid buying them here, also the fact that I beleive they charged the guy 200 E´s EACH ! /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

 

[Anonymous]

I was wondering about a copy - Chinese or otherwise. I did hear that there are a lot of low quality battery manufacturers in Africa (big place, don't know which part) but something to do with having access to cheap material, labour,... If ever I bought Trojans I would order from the manufacturer or a principal agent....this chap did get them at a discount, apparently.

The good thing about Trojans is that they are proven to cope with high discharge rates and deep cycle and that's what you need in a cruising yacht. How deep do you let your Trojans go? I limit mine to 1/3 discharge, under normal circumstances, 1/2 if I really have to.

 

[captainslarty]

Hi
Never more than half at a push, like you I try to limit it it to 1 third (225 AH). The only time we let them go to a half was on the Biscay crossing. I find the Sterling battery chargers very good, but use Balmar Alt reg and Balmar 130 A Alternator, I wanted bigger but was limited to one pulley belt due to space limitations, also the max torque on the front pulley assembly - I have an OM636 Merc.
We didnt have the water genny fitted then, but since have and the wind gen I hardly bother with.
Joe

 

[Chris_Robb]

Elecsol staff are extremely confusing. When I bought them, I was told I could charge to 14.8 - Steve the salesman, still says I can. I assumed they were typical lead acid - ie charge them hard - and replace lost water. Now they say I must not charge passed 14.4 or I will invalidate my waranty.

To clarify a couple of things: My daily charge was to bring the battery to 80% as it would need hours of charging on a generator to bring it to 100%. I stop charging when the voltages reach 14.5V and the charge has fallen to about 20amps. (assuming the engine battery is not taking musch of the chargers output). if I take 40% of the battery capacity each day - say 12.6V to 12.1, this would be about 80 amps. according to the BM1 meter I use 40amps. What I am having difficulty is in finding out what the % charge figures are for the elecsol at certain voltages.

Charging equipment is a Sterling 240V 4 stage 80 amp charger. It is set to charge to 14.8 plus an equalisation phase. The batteries are: 1 x 220ah elecsol, 2 x 100ah electsol (engine) plus 1 sterling battery to battery charger to charge the bow truster battery (a 100ah gel so set at 14.4), plus 1 x 100 ah generator start battery. When on shore power I have seen the voltages go to 15V for a short time - presumably the equalisation phase, it will then charge at 14.8 and then drop to 13.5 float.

 

[Chris_Robb]

Lemain - see my latest post answering another post - gives other back ground detail.

On the subject of charging to higher voltages (14.8) I would fully expect to have to top up with water regularly, which is why I would not buy a sealed or Gel battery (Inherited get bow thruster battery with the boat - takes an age to charge!)

I would probably not have notced the consumtion/voltage ratio had not my new Sterling alternator regulator not kept tripping out - all lights flashing after a few minutes charging on main engine - Alternator overvoltage. All new wiring - battery switches etc - so having great difficulty in tracking down the cause of this !!!!.

 

[Chris_Robb]

Brian - see later post for more background details. -

Yes the BM1 was fitted to show consumption, but then the voltage drop seemed rather large. All I am really after at this stage is if the capacity looks miles off, then I will get a professional check - a discharge check???

 

[Anonymous]

The more I have to do with Sterling (the man and the company) the more certain I am that it is trouble. Your new Sterling controller should not keep tripping out under any circumstances other than a defective alternator, battery or installation.

I don't follow your remark about not noticing "the consumption/voltage ratio", can you explain?

Charging voltages should be lower at higher temperatures and we are talking about the temperature of the battery which can rise appreciably after a long deep charge. 14.8V is quite a high rate and you want to reduce that to around 13.6V for the float.

 

[orizaba]

re the over charging,had the same happen a few years ago ,spoke to sterling,who were very helpful.
the cause was a voltage disparity on the negative side between battery an alternator if i remember rightly.the cure was a thin cable between alt case and and battery,
i must say re comments from lemain that i always found them knowledable and most helpful,i've been using their products both for work and privately for about 10 years,but to be fair the last time i had a problem was about 3 years ago so maybe things have changed.