Basic Charging Circuit with 1-2-All Switch (with diagram)

demonboy said:
What if I were to use my 1-2-All switch and wire the feed from the alternator/diode to COM and then a cable from 1 to the engine isolation switch (right hand terminal)? That way I could just switch the switch to OFF to stop charging the battery but not disturb the starter circuit whilst the engine is running?
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You could do that. It's an added complication and something else to remember. If you charge the starter battery through a diode, but don't use a diode in the house battery charging feed, the starter battery isn't going to get much more than 14v at any time, so should be OK.
 
Per post # 11 and the diagram in particular, Can you replace the diode spiltter with a VSR , or is it a bit more complicated than that?
 
demonboy said:
What if I were to use my 1-2-All switch and wire the feed from the alternator/diode to COM and then a cable from 1 to the engine isolation switch (right hand terminal)? That way I could just switch the switch to OFF to stop charging the battery but not disturb the starter circuit whilst the engine is running?
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Sounds OK to me, and you only need do it for long runs. Just make sure you can't disconnect ALL the batteries while the engine's running.
 
VicS said:
The OP has already explained why a VSR is not an option.. at present anyway!
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Yep, I could have been clearer.............I was actually thinking about my own setup and wondering whether I could replace the diode (as per diagram) for a VSR? I appreciate thread-drift issues, but thought that my question might help me (and others).
 
Jabamusic said:
Yep, I could have been clearer.............I was actually thinking about my own setup and wondering whether I could replace the diode (as per diagram) for a VSR? I appreciate thread-drift issues, but thought that my question might help me (and others).
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See post #65.
 
pvb said:
It's slightly different. Do you want a diagram showing a VSR? If so, see this link...
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k126/pvbpics/wiring2_zpscdb768cd.jpg
Click to expand...

Good diagram but I do prefer to the the alt output & charger run to the house bank first. With a large house bank you can get into relay cycling. In bad cases the house bank may not reach "combined" state for a good period of time due to the connect, drop, connect drop. Owners may be unaware this is going on, think it is charging fine, and continue to draw the house bank deeper and deeper.

Some VSR makers put in timer circuits to help minimize this but with a deeply drawn house bank, that is significantly larger than the start battery, you may not be able to hold the "combine" voltage long enough to not have the relay cycle... This becomes even more true with smallish alternators and chargers in comparison to the house bank.. I have had to fix this issue numerous times on customers boats where they've wired to the start battery first and the relay cycled.

Also wiring to the house bank first allows the relay to pass less current and live an easy life as the start battery requires very little charging. Also by wiring direct to the house bank you lose a number of terminal connections in the charging path to the bank that really needs it most..

It all depends on whose VSR you are using, some have no timers circuits in them at all and can be quite problematic when fed to a smaller bank first......
 
OK, putting VSRs to one side for the time being, and going back to my proposal of wiring the starter feed via COM-1 on the 1-2-BO switch so I can turn the charge on and off, I still have the problem of energising the alternator. The obvious answer is to supply a direct feed from starter +ve to alternator B+, but this by-passes the diode and 1-2-All switch and provides a direct, constant charge to the starter that I can't turn off. I need to find a way of supplying an energising feed to the alternator that then cuts-out when it has started (I assume I can't turn off the isolation switch, cutting supply to the starter +ve, since I still need the supply from the starter to run the ignition circuit as the engine is running).

Bearing in mind this is just a temporary situation until I get my Sterling unit back, two possible solutions:

1) Utilise the '2' on the 1-2-BO switch which provides a direct feed back to the alternator purely for energising. Once started, I switch it back to 1 to charge the starter and then OFF to stop the charge to the starter (the house has a direct feed from alternator so at no point is the alternator not feeding something).

2) Put a switch on a cable in between the starter +ve and B+.

Solution 1 is physically difficult for me to implement, so if I went for solution 2), what size cable and switch? I assume it wouldn't have to be that big.
 
Hold on, I'm not thinking this through. If I wire the alternator directly to the house battery (starter through the diode), as per pvb's suggestion, then the alternator is being energised by the house bank. This should be ok, shouldn't it?
 
I've knocked up a quick schematic of my proposed solution, which is temporary until I receive the Sterling unit back. It is based upon pvb's proposed solution.

In it I have used the 1-2-B-O switch as a way of isolating the charge to the engine battery. By turning it to 1, I can charge the engine battery, and OFF to stop charging. I can then turn it to ALL in order to use both banks to start in emergency, since the house is connected to 2.

The alternator is also feeding the house directly, providing excitation back to the alternator. It does mean there is a constant 12v going back to the alternator at all times, but I assume this is ok.

I have 300amp battery terminal fuses, which I have yet to fit since the battery terminals are too short!

I know it's not ideal but is there anything glaringly obvious I've done wrong?

Schematic here: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/25233603/ybw/ESPER-STARTER-CHARGING-SCHEMATIC-MAR-2013.jpg
 
Hold on, I'm not thinking this through. If I wire the alternator directly to the house battery (starter through the diode), as per pvb's suggestion, then the alternator is being energised by the house bank. This should be ok, shouldn't it?
Click to expand...

Yes.
 
demonboy said:
I still have the problem of energising the alternator. The obvious answer is to supply a direct feed from starter +ve to alternator B+,
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This is not right. See my post #55.

B+ and battery are solidly linked (subject to isolator switches and in a few systems a relay) but this is the main output, not the excitation. That goes to D+/61. The warning light should be enough.
 
Troubadour, did you see the latest schematic? Under normal circumstances your point may be the case but at the moment I am not getting enough power to/from my warning light. I've just started the engine with no feed other than the WL and it was putting out 10v. When I excited it via B+, it was putting out 13v+.

That said, looking back at the wiring diagram for the Lucas TVS (the new 90amp one, not the old Lucas I was trying to fit the Balmar to), which one is D+? Is D+ the same as WL? Diagram here for reference: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/25233603/ybw/lucasgif.gif
 
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That's the same diagram i marked up before isn't it? Have a look back.
B+ is just marked + on the dia. That is the alternator charging output.
D+ is WL.

JUMP FROM HERE TO THE EDIT AT FOOT OF PAGE. ALL IN BETWEEN IS LEFT IN FOR COMPLETENESS BUT PROBABLY NOT RELEVANT!!

There must be something wrong here.
If you are getting 10V it proves that start up excitation via the WL is sufficient. If the warning light bulb blows and you have no feed there at all then normally the alternator gives no output at all, used to be quite a common fault on cars, that's why they started fitting a resistor as well as I described before. The small feed via the WL is just to kick it into action, whereupon it feeds itself. I think you're a computer man aren't you - try thinking of it like a bootstrap loader! (On occasion an alternator will self start because of residual magnetism with no excitation applied but you can't rely on it.)
If you link the battery B+ direct to the field D+ (if that's what you have done) you are over exciting it and will be permanently running it at full output.
You will note in the Balmar reg instructions that the max excitation voltage that it ever gives is +11V.

I'm a bit stuck now. However some initial questions, in the condition where it only produces 10V:
Before you start, does the warning light come on?
When started and producing 10V does the WL go out?
What voltage do you then have at D+?
What voltage do you then have on the Balmar field output (blue)?
Are you sure all the other Balmar connections are correct?

Also can you explain more clearly what you are connecting to what when you say "When I excited it via B+, it was putting out 13v+"


EDIT:
I have just been reading the Balmar stuff more fully (you did say ARS-5 didn't you?) http://www.balmar.net/PDF/2010-ars-5-manual-web.pdf
It's not very clearly explained and it's a pity they don't put an overall cct dia in, but if you read the test sequence at the top of page 6, it says that as soon as you turn the "ignition" on, there will be between 4 and 12V on the blue wire. That is the field excitation.
This makes any consideration of start up excitation via the WL irrelevant!
Either your Balmar reg is faulty or it isn't wired up correctly.
I suggest you work your way through the instructions checking every connection and following the test procedures.
Is the brown wire correctly linked to the "ignition" switch?
 
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Troubadour said:
I have just been reading the Balmar stuff more fully (you did say ARS-5 didn't you?) http://www.balmar.net/PDF/2010-ars-5-manual-web.pdf
It's not very clearly explained and it's a pity they don't put an overall cct dia in, but if you read the test sequence at the top of page 6, it says that as soon as you turn the "ignition" on, there will be between 4 and 12V on the blue wire. That is the field excitation.
This makes any consideration of start up excitation via the WL irrelevant!
Either your Balmar reg is faulty or it isn't wired up correctly.
I suggest you work your way through the instructions checking every connection and following the test procedures.
Is the brown wire correctly linked to the "ignition" switch?
Click to expand...

Thank you very much for your time, Troubadour. Just to reiterate what I am attempting to do here:

I have three alternators. Two are identical, two original Lucas marine 55amp with external regulators attached (the basic Lucas triangular shaped reg that sits on the back of the alternator that look roughly like this: http://www.thetoolboxshop.com/user/...ronic-regulator-for-24v-alternator-4383-p.jpg). These were added so I could bypass the regs in order to install the Balmar.

However, I have not installed the Balmar at all. This is all theoretical. I wanted to know which field wires to attach to the Balmar since the alternator man, who installed the external regulators on those two 55amp alternators, resoldered two wires coming from the inside of the alternator to the external reg.

The third alternator is the new 90amp Lucas-TVS, the one I included a circuit diagram to above. This is the one that I have installed and will be running. It does not have an external regulator attached and has not been modified.

The problem is this: for some reason, when I hook up the 90amp alternator and attach the WL, the WL comes on when I turn on the ignition circuit, yet when I hook up the old 55amp alternator and attach the WL, the WL doesn't come on.

All I know is this: I have a starter circuit issue where not enough power is being sent to the starter relay, so I am unable to start my engine by pressing the start button. This is also part of the problem with the WL not coming on since the WL is connected via the starter relay. Why it comes on with the 90amp alternator and not the 55amp alternator is beyond me, but NEITHER are able to supply enough power to the starter relay to start the engine.

The Balmar is a separate thing. I have not rigged it up because I do not know which external field wire (on the 55amp alternator) to attach to the Balmar. And in any case, this is only my fall-back contingency. I can't rig the Balmar up to the 90amp alternator since it has not been modified, it is fitted as-is.

Not sure if that helps or hinders the scenario!
 
Christ! You are making it all very complex and I think fewer parallel threads might have been better.
So dealing with the unmodified 90A alt and ignoring everything else and hoping you haven't got them interconnected in a way that affects it all.
What do you mean the WL is connected via the starter relay? It should be straight from the power on ("ignition") circuit.
I have no idea why your start button doesn't work. You haven't mentioned that before. You'll have to look where in the circuit the voltage is disappearing.

I haven't any circuits to copy separately but if you look at pages 41 and 42 or 43 - depending whether you have a switch or a keystart - of http://vppneuapps.volvo.com/ww/PIE/...403&d=Owners Publication&s=2999068&lang=en-GB
this is the Volvo MD20xx series manual and the wiring is very typical. Maybe you'll understand it better from that. You'll also see the resistor I've talked about as item 9 on page 41, if you follow it through you'll see it's effectively in parallel with the warning light.

On the other alternators where the WL doesn't come on, it may have been taken out of circuit in fitting the external regulators. If they have external sensing from the battery this may feed the start up excitation same as the Balmar. A no charge WL is useful however.
 
Hi Troubadour, I was quite explicit about the problem on this thread. I made a point of not mixing up the charging circuit issue with the starter issues, though I alluded to them in an earlier post. This thread is about setting up a basic charging circuit using either/or/and the isolation and 1-2-BO switches. PVB's diagram sorted this problem out for me.

The Balmar and field wiring issues are covered in another thread, which you've kindly contributed to.

This third issue with the starter relay problem is something I've purposely not made a big deal out of since it is separate and not something anyone can help me with. That just boils down to me diligently working my way through the entire circuit to work out where the resistance is coming from... something I'll have to do at anchor ;) Thanks for the link to the Volvo circuit.
 
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