Basic Charging Circuit with 1-2-All Switch (with diagram)

[Plevier]

No, the Balmar sensing lead should be on the house batteries. Batteries accept charge according to their needs. The starter battery will be fully charged most of the time and won't accept much current. The bulk of the current will go into your house batteries.

But the Balmar is a single output multi stage charger.
What you say is only true at a float/recharge voltage up to say 14V.
If the house batteries are calling for bulk/absorption charging at 14.5V or more, I don't know exactly the level of the Balmar, the already fully charged starter battery will see the same voltage and it will pass a lot more than float current which should be a fraction of an amp and it will gas significantly.
If it's a SLA - as demonboy said - this will shorten its life a lot if it happens for significant periods of time.

 

[pvb]

But the Balmar is a single output multi stage charger.
What you say is only true at a float/recharge voltage up to say 14V.
If the house batteries are calling for bulk/absorption charging at 14.5V or more, I don't know exactly the level of the Balmar, the already fully charged starter battery will see the same voltage and it will pass a lot more than float current which should be a fraction of an amp and it will gas significantly.
If it's a SLA - as demonboy said - this will shorten its life a lot if it happens for significant periods of time.

My house batteries are maintenance-free "sealed" lead acid batteries, charged by a 90A alternator boosted by an Adverc, which provides charging up to about 14.8v in UK temperatures. The batteries are fine on this regime, and last for many years.

If the OP is very concerned about the starter battery, he could just use one leg of a diode splitter to charge it, and have the house batteries supplied directly by the alternator. This would reduce the voltage applied to the starter battery, but would still maintain the integrity of its isolation.

 

[demonboy]

OK, I'm on the case with this wiring and making progress. Annoyingly my battery terminal fuses are too thick to mount on my batteries, but never mind.

I have a question about where to install the Mastervolt starter battery feed (mains powered). Because of current wiring restrictions I have a choice of wiring the feed either to the solenoid or to the diode. If I wire it to the solenoid it means I have to have the isolation switch 'on', whereas on the diode it's a direct feed. Any considerations regarding this? Any no-nos I'm over-looking?

 

[pvb]

I have a question about where to install the Mastervolt starter battery feed (mains powered). Because of current wiring restrictions I have a choice of wiring the feed either to the solenoid or to the diode. If I wire it to the solenoid it means I have to have the isolation switch 'on', whereas on the diode it's a direct feed. Any considerations regarding this? Any no-nos I'm over-looking?

In that case, wire it to the diode. You can then leave the battery on charge whilst isolating the engine if you leave the boat.

 

[demonboy]

In that case, wire it to the diode.

Great, thanks. That's the option I was thinking.

Troubadour, re the sealed lead-acid, I spoke to Charles Sterling about this when I first bought the AB unit and pointed out that I would be setting the unit to charge the open-lead acid (14.8v boost) and that I was concerned about the sealed starter. He concurred with pvb's experience and said it should be ok. I hadn't considered pvb's latest suggestion though...

For the record the alternator I've had to take off, a new Lucas, is 90amp. The one I'm having to put on is rated at 55 but I had it tested and it only throws out 30. *sigh* Fortunately I have solar (and there's a lot of sun here!) and a new toy, a Honda EU20i.

 

[KevO]

B*gger....

I have recently checked all through the wiring on my Hustler. I was very pleased to find that everything from the switch panel is basically sound although I have replaced every chocolate box connection I found (lots of them ) with proper crimped, contralubed and heatshrunk ones.

There was an old wet 70ah, 600cca, starter batt that was totally u/s and another sealed 70ah, 600cca, leisure batt for domestics (that seems perfectly fine). Each wired to a 60ah alternator on the Yanmar 2GM20F via a 1,2,both,off switch.

As the starter batt was knackered (and wanting to beef up the domestic capacity anyway) I was going to reuse the old 70ah leisure batt as the starter, install 2 x 110ah sealed leisure batts (wired in parallel) as a new domestic bank and just connect them up to the 1,2,both switch same as before. I thought I could just change the batts and not worry about disturbing the 1,2,both setup.

Now having read this thread I am worrying that I may be making a stupid mistake by not ditching the 1,2,both jobber now and installing something more complicated with a VSR or summat. I can't afford to get some chap in to do it all and would like to do it all myself. I say again... b*gger

 

[Plevier]

Well if Mr Sterling will guarantee the battery for you that's great!
I don't know of any battery manufacturer that would, certainly not the large one for which I worked in a technical role.
Putting a diode in is a fairly common trick, might help a bit.

 

[demonboy]

I say again... b*gger

I've been saying a lot more than b*gger these last few days, Kev! This thread has retained my sanity.

 

[lenseman]

. . . . . I would wish to avoid buying a heavy duty crimper so any of you that can recommend one which crimps terminals that would be fantastic!

I have a H/D crimper and if you buy the leads and the ends that require fitting, bring it down and I will fit them on the cable for you.

I am based in Go Sport.



.

 

[demonboy]

Morning all, I have one final question that I'd appreciate your opinion on.

As a last-minute back-up I am fitting an old alternator rated at 55amp (real output around 30 and remember there's now a diode in the circuit) in order to fit the Balmar regulator.

Since the new alternator is rated at 90amp, wouldn't I be better off fitting this back on without any regulator? How intelligent would the new alternator be at handling the split charge and how would I go about exciting that alternator upon start-up (the Sterling did this job for me previously)? The alternator is an Indian-built, non-marine Lucas (Lucas-TVS A128, circuit diagram to follow). Surely the non-externally regulated 90amps (guessing around 70 in real money) would be better than the regulated 30amps?

What are the advantages and disadvantages of this option?

 

[demonboy]

Try this link for the circuit diagram of the Lucas-TVS A128

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/25233603/ybw/lucasgif.gif

 

[pvb]

Try this link for the circuit diagram of the Lucas-TVS A128

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/25233603/ybw/lucasgif.gif

Well, you should wire the Lucas alternator according to the diagram! You just need a wire from your warning light to the WL connection.

If you fit this, it would be best to wire its output directly to the house batteries, and wire the output to the starter battery via one leg of a diode splitter. That way, you'll isolate the starter battery.

 

[demonboy]

I don't think the WL will excite the alternator though. The alternator man had wired the B+ to the solenoid terminal, providing a current directly from the battery, but that then creates a direct feed to the battery, by-passing the diode. What about a feed from the smaller terminal on the solenoid that only becomes live when the ignition is started?

 

[pvb]

I don't think the WL will excite the alternator though. The alternator man had wired the B+ to the solenoid terminal, providing a current directly from the battery, but that then creates a direct feed to the battery, by-passing the diode. What about a feed from the smaller terminal on the solenoid that only becomes live when the ignition is started?

Why not try it first? If it doesn't charge, try adding a wire from the starter solenoid.

 

[Plevier]

The indicator lamp should be enough. However it's quite common practise to wire a feed via a resistor too. This ensures you still get excitation if the bulb burns out.
You can have it permanently in circuit (when the "ignition" is on) i.e. simply in parallel with the bulb as for example on recent Volvo Penta engines or you can wire it as you suggest in post #53 so it's only on when the starter button is pressed.
However this connection should go to D+ (also known as 61 and WL) not B+. In most systems B+ is the same as going straight onto the battery, and it is going to be linked to one side of the starter solenoid main (not control) contacts, but that's nothing to do with the alternator. See attached.
View attachment 28766
It is normal to use a resistor rather than a solid connection. I'm not sure what value, sorry, I would guess at 50-100 ohms or so, it's not going to be critical. I can measure the one on my Volvo but not until Wednesday.
If it's permanently wired without a resistor the warning light would never come on.

 

[Plevier]

Troubadour, re the sealed lead-acid, I spoke to Charles Sterling about this when I first bought the AB unit and pointed out that I would be setting the unit to charge the open-lead acid (14.8v boost) and that I was concerned about the sealed starter. He concurred with pvb's experience and said it should be ok. I hadn't considered pvb's latest suggestion though...

I want to have another go at answering this for you!

Here's a bit from one of Sterling's web pages http://www.sterling-power.com/support-faq-2.htm
"Fast charging costs water, i.e. if you want to charge you batteries fast, don't touch a Sealed/Gel/AGM etc with a barge pole. Fast charging will result in a certain % water loss from the battery. If the battery is sealed the water loss cannot be replaced. REMEMBER FAST CHARGING AND SEALED/MAINTAINCE-FREE ARE A CONTRADICTION OF TERMS. You may not like this, but tough, it's the way it is."
and another bit
"Avoid Gel / AGM for 3 reasons

very expensive
their fast charger rate causes them to gas
poor cycling numbers."

Contradictory with what he said to you isn't it?
I wouldn't argue with him about charger technology, but he does have funny ideas about batteries and says things that are inconsistent and sometimes plain wrong.
Any charged up lead acid battery will gas significantly at 14.8V.
I'm not suggesting it will lead to immediate failure. A typical yacht regime of fairly short engine runs will be OK for a long time. Temperature also matters and pvb says "uk conditions". I don't know the rest of his regime, whether liveaboard or weekender or what.
In your case, as I said on your other thread, if you are envisaging lengthy motoring periods in conditions where your main batteries are calling for bulk/absorption charging and it's going to 14.8V, your starter battery will suffer, especially at Indian temperatures.

 

[Plevier]

My house batteries are maintenance-free "sealed" lead acid batteries, charged by a 90A alternator boosted by an Adverc, which provides charging up to about 14.8v in UK temperatures. The batteries are fine on this regime, and last for many years.

Yes that's fine.
What I'm concerned about is demonboy's starter battery being subjected to this voltage potentially for prolonged periods when already fully charged and at tropical temperature.
Different conditions from you.

 

[demonboy]

What I'm concerned about is demonboy's starter battery being subjected to this voltage potentially for prolonged periods when already fully charged and at tropical temperature.

I think I'll have to suck it and see, Troubadour. Having just bought a new battery replacing it with another one isn't within the budget at the moment. I take your point about the tropical temperatures though. I'll see what kind of state it's in when I get to Male.

 

[Plevier]

Not suggesting changing it. A wet one would gas too in those conditions.
At least put in a diode as PVB suggested and/or make provision to disconnect it when appropriate.

 

[demonboy]

What if I were to use my 1-2-All switch and wire the feed from the alternator/diode to COM and then a cable from 1 to the engine isolation switch (right hand terminal)? That way I could just switch the switch to OFF to stop charging the battery but not disturb the starter circuit whilst the engine is running?