Barden Power Max batteries

[Ric]

My 3 x 70Ah service batteries need to be replaced.

The current batteries are ten year old Delphi Marine 70Ah sealed batteries, but I'm inclined to replace them with unsealed lead-acid batteries in the expectation of faster charging performance as I intend to fit a Sterling alternator regulator. I also need the new batteries to be about the same case-size as the old as I do not want to rebuild the battery compartment.

Has anybody any views on the Barden Power Max batteries?

http://www.barden-ukshop.com/powermax-wet-lead-acid-leisure-battery-range-105-c.asp

I see that their "85" battery has the same case-size as most other manufacturers 70Ah batteries (including my existing Delphis), but rather suspiciously does not specifically state an Ah rating. Is it really 85Ah as implied?

Is there much performance difference between sealed and unsealed? The premium for the sealed version is not much and could be worth it to me if performance loss is not too much.

 

[PetiteFleur]

Be careful about comparing AH ratings - they have changed the method of calculating this recently and from memory what used to be say 110ah is now 105ah. Your original batteries have certainly lasted well, mine tend to last 5/6 years. I use Battery Megastore who are good value and I've just changed from unsealed to sealed and so far have been happy with them.

 

[Barry Jones]

I believe these are a normal leisure battery.

Can't answer the question about the 85. Its worth asking them in writing.
I note that one of the customer reviews states 85AH.

I believe there were moves to stop battery suppliers adding meaningless numbers to batteries that suggested better capacities than actuals.

As you know, there is some benefit in fitting an open wet lead acid battery with the alternator controller in that you can charge them at a higher voltage in the bulk stage which will speed up charging times. Obviously, you need to keep an eye on the electrolyte levels.

On a blue water boat, I would fit sealed every time if only for added safety in rough conditions.

 

[pvb]

As you know, there is some benefit in fitting an open wet lead acid battery with the alternator controller in that you can charge them at a higher voltage in the bulk stage which will speed up charging times. Obviously, you need to keep an eye on the electrolyte levels.

Not necessarily. Maintenance-free batteries are very tolerant of higher charge voltages.

I charge with an Adverc booster which tends to hit 14.8v most of the time. I used to have Delco 2000 maintenance-free batteries, which lasted 8 or 9 years, and then I replaced them with Merlin PowerPack maintenance-free batteries, which I expect to last for 8 or 9 years too.

 

[ianj99]

My 3 x 70Ah service batteries need to be replaced.

The current batteries are ten year old Delphi Marine 70Ah sealed batteries, but I'm inclined to replace them with unsealed lead-acid batteries in the expectation of faster charging performance as I intend to fit a Sterling alternator regulator. I also need the new batteries to be about the same case-size as the old as I do not want to rebuild the battery compartment.

Has anybody any views on the Barden Power Max batteries?

http://www.barden-ukshop.com/powermax-wet-lead-acid-leisure-battery-range-105-c.asp

I see that their "85" battery has the same case-size as most other manufacturers 70Ah batteries (including my existing Delphis), but rather suspiciously does not specifically state an Ah rating. Is it really 85Ah as implied?

Is there much performance difference between sealed and unsealed? The premium for the sealed version is not much and could be worth it to me if performance loss is not too much.

Sterling recommend Trojan batteries and Charles Sterling reckons they'll last for years if looked after. I bought a very costly Optima battery - before I'd heard of Trojan because there is no limit on charging current and I'd just fitted Sterling digital alternator regulator.

 

[Barry Jones]

I think you will find the Merlin Powerpack batteries are Lead Calcium.

The batteries referred to by the OP are with Antimony.

 

[Barry Jones]

Its very easy to recommend expensive batteries and means little.

US Battery do a much more cost effective version of the Trojan.

IMHO the best battery that money can buy is the x Optima x Odyssey PC2150T.

Edited to add - should be Odyssey not Optima

 

[NOHOH]

Its very easy to recommend expensive batteries and means little.

US Battery do a much more cost effective version of the Trojan.

IMHO the best battery that money can buy is the Optima PC2150T.

Do you mean the Odyssey PC2150T?............

Why do you think its the best?

 

[Barry Jones]

Sorry - brain and typing finger doing different things.

Yes should be Odyssey.

Very good charge efficiency and speed, bombproof when mistreated but very expensive.

 

[Ric]

Be careful about comparing AH ratings - they have changed the method of calculating this recently and from memory what used to be say 110ah is now 105ah. Your original batteries have certainly lasted well, mine tend to last 5/6 years. I use Battery Megastore who are good value and I've just changed from unsealed to sealed and so far have been happy with them.

Thanks - I just looked at their site and see they have some 110Ah batteries that will fit my spaces - and only a little more expensive.

 

[Plevier]

I think the normal confusion is arising here and it's not helped by the Barden web page.

"Sealed maintenance free" like the Barden one is still a flooded battery. This is proved by the fact that it has a "magic eye hydrometer". That's only possible with flooded batteries. It's only sealed in the sense that you can't top it up. (Well usually you can by levering out a cap often hidden under a label.) It may have an increased water reserve to help make up for this. In the small print it will almost certainly be limited to charging at less than about 14V. Using a multi stage charger it's likely to run out of water in its lifetime.

Based on the Barden website I can't see any justification for the price difference between their two 85Ah ones. They are the same weight (the weight is totally dominated by the amount of lead so other things being equal, if you're looking for life, heavier is better!) and very similar cranking capacity - and note they are giving MCA which is at 0deg, not the normal CCA which is at -18deg. The cheaper one claims thick plates, envelope separators etc; the dearer one has less information.

I'm quite sure Barden don't design or make batteries; they will buy them from anyone. These are probably just the products of two different vendors. One may be better quality than the other but you have no evidence to judge.

"Sealed lead acid" or "SLA" or "AGM" or "VRLA" - all the same thing, and both Odyssey and Optima are in that category - is a quite different technology with no liquid acid in it. It's absorbed in unsaturated microporous separators. The gas produced in charging genuinely recombines so there is absolutely negligible water loss if you use the right charge regime. You can't top it up and you can't have a "magic eye hydrometer" in it. SLA batteries are great for engine starting; I have less faith in them for cycling duties (based on many years experience in the industry).

You need to be careful about voltages and times if you use a multi stage charger with these, but with care you can and the water recombination reaction will keep up with it.

One poster mentioned antimony and calcium. The Barden ones probably are antimony but in wet batteries this is pretty unimportant anyway. Calcium fans will trot out figures about the self discharge and gassing rates of antimony but invariably they use figures from donkeys years ago when 8-10% antimony was used and it was a problem. Nowadays it's normally about 1.5% antimony and there is little difference in self discharge and gassing. Calcium does need a higher chargeing voltage.

In SLA batteries either pure lead or lead calcium is used.

(Lead:calcium and lead:antimony are both lead acid batteries. The working chemistry is the same. The calcium or antimony is just an alloying element used to add strength to the framework of the grids; pure lead is too weak. Tin, silver and a few other additives are used too. Antimony is historically European practise, calcium is USA, Japan does both!)

If I were really hammering the batteries as a liveabord then I would go for an expensive heavy wet battery like the Trojan or equivalent. Most people don't need that though. There is no one right answer.

When mine need changing i shall look at mid brands like Exide, Varta, Bosch and Numax. I don't like ones rebadged by distributors; you don't know what you're getting. I've been at the supplier end of the business.

PS having looked again at the original post - you're quite right to note that Barden call their batteries 85, 110 etc - but they don't actually say that's the Ah capacity do they? It appears to be just a model number.

 

[sailinglegend420]

..............."Sealed lead acid" or "SLA" or "AGM" or "VRLA" - all the same thing...................

A slightly misleading statement. This might suggest that Leisure batteries, GEL and AGMs are all the same.

The Odyssey mentioned in a previous post are AGM which charge 30% faster than wet lead acid with the same sized alternator. This charge rate will be dramatically increased by adding as large an alternator as you can.

 

[Plevier]

A slightly misleading statement. This might suggest that Leisure batteries, GEL and AGMs are all the same.

I don't understand how you infer that. What I said was perfectly clear. All the terms I listed are alternative designations for the same thing. VRLA (valve regulated lead acid) is the "official" term in this country - used in BS6290 Part 4 - but AGM and SLA are more colloquial.
Gel is indeed different, and "leisure" means whatever the manufacturer wants it to mean. A "leisure" might be flooded (either with vent plugs or "sealed maintenance free"), gel, AGM or whatever.
Are you yourself falling into the trap I mentioned of confusing "sealed maintenance free" with "sealed lead acid" perhaps?

All VRLAs are broadly similar although they differ in plate thickness etc. the same as flooded batteries. They all show very good charge acceptance as you say. Optima and Cyclon differ in being spiral rather than flat plate construction but still behave much the same way.

The constructional requirements of AGM inherently limit the maximum plate thickness you can use to less than in a flooded battery. This is one of the reasons I'm not keen on them for severe cycling duty.

 

[sailinglegend420]

.............Are you yourself falling into the trap I mentioned of confusing "sealed maintenance free" with "sealed lead acid" perhaps?.................

I'm not, but others might - that was my point. Most would think of both as "sealed maintenance free lead acid."

All I'm trying to do is avoid confusion in what is a highly complicated subject area. SLA often refers only to GELs and VRLA to AGMs. But many batteries described as GELs are probably AGMs.

Just to raise one more point : "All VRLAs are broadly similar although they differ in plate thickness etc..." is again slightly misleading! You say "Gels are indeed different," but both Gel and AGMs are VRLAs but are very very differrent in there performance. AGMs are a huge step forward from GELs such that many dealers now do not sell GELs.

I agree that plate thickness is all important - but you try and find manufacturers details of plate thickness for your preferred brands. What I did manage to find is this

Automotive batteries typically have plates about .040" (4/100") thick, while forklift batteries may have plates more than 1/4" (.265" for example in larger Rolls-Surrette) thick - almost 7 times as thick as auto batteries. The typical golf cart will have plates that are around .07 to .11" thick. The Concorde AGM's are .115", The Rolls-Surrette L-16 type (CH460) is .150", and the US Battery and Trojan L-16 types are .090". The Crown L-16HC size has .22" thick plates. While plate thickness is not the only factor in how many deep cycles a battery can take before it dies, it is the most important one.

So my Concord AGMs are better than the Trojan - so some AGMs can be constructed to do the heavy duty work.

 

[charles_reed]

I always feel that battery discussions have an eerie similarity to those threads as to whether one is a good or bad driver.

An obscure, confused and, frequently, misinformed argument.

 

[sailinglegend420]

I always feel that battery discussions have an eerie similarity to those threads as to whether one is a good or bad driver.

An obscure, confused and, frequently, misinformed argument.

With your infinite wisdom why don't you point out where the "misinformed arguments" are. Or are you just a bad driver who won't admit it.

 

[charles_reed]

Don't claim infinite wisdom and am perfectly willing to admit I sometimes drive badly.

Just a comment on most threads about batteries...

 

[cliff]

I always feel that battery discussions have an eerie similarity to those threads as to whether one is a good or bad driver.

An obscure, confused and, frequently, misinformed argument.

Funny you said that - I was just thinking "God, another bloody anchor thread".

 

[Plevier]

I'm not, but others might - that was my point. Most would think of both as "sealed maintenance free lead acid."

*** Well the thrust of half of my post was to explain the difference between "sealed maintenance free" and "sealed lead acid". I'm sorry you don't think I managed it - have a go yourself.

All I'm trying to do is avoid confusion in what is a highly complicated subject area. SLA often refers only to GELs and VRLA to AGMs.

*** I disagree!

But many batteries described as GELs are probably AGMs.

*** In forum postings that's true, not in any manufacturers statements I hope.

Just to raise one more point : "All VRLAs are broadly similar although they differ in plate thickness etc..." is again slightly misleading!

You say "Gels are indeed different," but both Gel and AGMs are VRLAs but are very very differrent in there performance. AGMs are a huge step forward from GELs such that many dealers now do not sell GELs.

*** Do you think gels are considered to be VRLAs? They certainly weren't in BS6290 Pt 4 when it came out. I'm not up to date with the EN that has replaced it, has it included gels? Gels are greatly inferior (IMO). They gas too much especially early in life, they have to be charged more gently and they don't like high rate discharges.

I agree that plate thickness is all important - but you try and find manufacturers details of plate thickness for your preferred brands. What I did manage to find is this

Automotive batteries typically have plates about .040" (4/100") thick, while forklift batteries may have plates more than 1/4" (.265" for example in larger Rolls-Surrette) thick - almost 7 times as thick as auto batteries. The typical golf cart will have plates that are around .07 to .11" thick. The Concorde AGM's are .115", The Rolls-Surrette L-16 type (CH460) is .150", and the US Battery and Trojan L-16 types are .090". The Crown L-16HC size has .22" thick plates. While plate thickness is not the only factor in how many deep cycles a battery can take before it dies, it is the most important one.

*** Some interesting figures there, most of which I'd agree with. I wonder which Concorde model has such thick plates? I'm surprised. That is quite a thick plate for SLA, almost as thick as we used to use in 10 year life telecom standby (not cycling) batteries. Concorde's background is aircraft batteries which will be much thinner. I'm also surprised at the claimed thinness of the Trojan plate - looking at the data sheet for the L16 it's a very tall narrow battery, I would have expected thicker. As you say it's very hard to get definitive information.

So my Concord AGMs are better than the Trojan - so some AGMs can be constructed to do the heavy duty work.

*** Not rising to that one.

.

 

[Plevier]

I always feel that battery discussions have an eerie similarity to those threads as to whether one is a good or bad driver.

An obscure, confused and, frequently, misinformed argument.

We're trying to get rid of some of the confusion and misinformation. If you aren't interested, don't read it. Let us be nerdy if we want!