Balsa core decks

Tranona said:
If the boat is of any value you cannot afford not to have a surveyor unless you are prepared to end up with a worthless boat then have difficulty in getting rid of it!

Its OK if you have the knowledge and confidence to make your own assessment and live with the consequences, but if you want to buy a relatively trouble free boat then a professional opinion is worth it.
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On the other hand there are a lot of people (probably the majority if my experience is anything to go by) that don't dare take risks for themselves & consequently never get anywhere.
I try to swat up & make my own decisions......you can't iron out every risk.
(I do agree with you that owning/buying & maintaining old boats is no small thing).
Thanks for your advice.
 
Nicholas123 said:
On the other hand there are a lot of people (probably the majority if my experience is anything to go by) that don't dare take risks for themselves & consequently never get anywhere.
I try to swat up & make my own decisions......you can't iron out every risk.
(I do agree with you that owning/buying & maintaining old boats is no small thing).
Thanks for your advice.
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Maybe I have misunderstood your earlier posts about your rubbish boat that you can't get rid of!

Not using a surveyor is a false economy. Almost certainly he will find things wrong with the boat that justifies seeking a reduction in price which more than pays for his fees. His report also helps you to get all risks insurance (if you need it) which is often difficult on an old boat without a survey.

By all means find out as much as you can about the boat to assess whether it is worth pursuing. I have been around boats for 35 years, built boats and owned several. Would not dream of buying a boat without a survey. I would use my knowledge to identify a boat that is worth spending the survey money on, knowing that I have almost certainly missed something that is likely to cost more than the survey fee to put right. It is not a question of not being prepared to take risks - it is knowing when to use an expert to reduce the risk even further.
 
We bought our first boat off ebay for £500 - and didn't bother with a survey on that one. Our second boat was bought through a broker for £22,500 and the survey cost us about £400, but he came up with faults that allowed us to negotiate a £1000 discount on the original asking price.

I took the view that, while I could have afforded to write off the entire £22k (though I would have grumbled a lot), the total loss could have been even more than that. If there had been a serious defect that I had missed, and it proved uneconomical to fix it, I could not have simply abandoned her on the beach - I would have had to add insult to injury and paid someone to haul her out, tow her away and scrap her!

We've recently been the process of upgrading again. This time we looked at a five year old boat costing in excess of £50,000. The survey uncovered things that got me significantly worried and we were unable to negotiate a satisfactory resolution with the owner, so we walked away. We've now scraped around in multiple savings accounts and await the delivery of our brand new Jeanneau in mid-October. At least we will know exactly what has happened to her!

P.S. If you need a bilge keeler, I know where you will soon be able to buy a Hunter Ranger in very nice condition for twenty-two thousand - all solid GRP - no balsa to rot! :-)
 
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My brother has a Tartan 34 and he replaced the entire roof due to rot. He is an excellent DIY'er but it took him a lot of time and lots of money for the right products.

His boat on the other hand is absolutely magnificent... unlike mine which is merely very nice.

So beware ... it could be mucho dineros:rolleyes:
 
Nicholas123 said:
Sounds complicated & clearly I am going to have to get a book out the library if I acquire a boat with a balsa core.
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{re making epoxy plugs to seal thru deck fittings in balsa cored decks] Sounds much more complicated when explained than when you see it done or drawn. (There are some older threads explaining in detail if you want to try searching.)

We had a few suspect fittings in our balsa cored deck. I wanted them fixed,as a preventative measure, with the drilled epoxy plug method. I was going to do it myself but got the yard to do it while they did another, different job that was beyond my skills. The chap in the yard did them in no time (like many things, it's easy when you know how!) The biggest work is taking the deck fittings off in the first place, then putting them back afterwards.

I think if I had to do the same again on another boat I might well do it myself, but preferably would take the fittings off myself, pay someone experienced to do the filling and drilling (their time will probably cost less than the epoxy I'd waste!), and then put the fittings back on myself.
 
Tranona said:
Maybe I have misunderstood your earlier posts about your rubbish boat that you can't get rid of!

Not using a surveyor is a false economy. Almost certainly he will find things wrong with the boat that justifies seeking a reduction in price which more than pays for his fees. His report also helps you to get all risks insurance (if you need it) which is often difficult on an old boat without a survey.

By all means find out as much as you can about the boat to assess whether it is worth pursuing. I have been around boats for 35 years, built boats and owned several. Would not dream of buying a boat without a survey. I would use my knowledge to identify a boat that is worth spending the survey money on, knowing that I have almost certainly missed something that is likely to cost more than the survey fee to put right. It is not a question of not being prepared to take risks - it is knowing when to use an expert to reduce the risk even further.
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You have misunderstood my earlier posts.I owned that boat for 15 years had a wonderful experience in her & sold her for five hundred quid the other day.
I had her insured fully comp for about a hundred quid & have owned several boats over a period of 40 years.
Incidentally I only paid about 1500 quid for that boat originally & don't begrudge a penny spent on her.Maybe you have lots of money,I'm not sure it is worth paying out for a surveyor when I only intend to spend about five thousand.
 
LittleSister said:
{re making epoxy plugs to seal thru deck fittings in balsa cored decks] Sounds much more complicated when explained than when you see it done or drawn. (There are some older threads explaining in detail if you want to try searching.)

We had a few suspect fittings in our balsa cored deck. I wanted them fixed,as a preventative measure, with the drilled epoxy plug method. I was going to do it myself but got the yard to do it while they did another, different job that was beyond my skills. The chap in the yard did them in no time (like many things, it's easy when you know how!) The biggest work is taking the deck fittings off in the first place, then putting them back afterwards.

I think if I had to do the same again on another boat I might well do it myself, but preferably would take the fittings off myself, pay someone experienced to do the filling and drilling (their time will probably cost less than the epoxy I'd waste!), and then put the fittings back on myself.
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It all depends how competent you are & how much money you have.Personally I get a huge satisfaction from doing things myself & that is half the fun of boat ownership.I would'nt have it any other way.
 
Nicholas123 said:
It all depends how competent you are & how much money you have.Personally I get a huge satisfaction from doing things myself & that is half the fun of boat ownership.I would'nt have it any other way.
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Good. I was just trying to reassure you that it was a simple job, and not at all as complicated as you seemed to think.
 
UOTE=LittleSister;3124566]{re making epoxy plugs to seal thru deck fittings in balsa cored decks] Sounds much more complicated when explained than when you see it done or drawn. (There are some older threads explaining in detail if you want to try searching.)
I think if I had to do the same again on another boat I might well do it myself, but preferably would take the fittings off myself, pay someone experienced to do the filling and drilling (their time will probably cost less than the epoxy I'd waste!), and then put the fittings back on myself.[/QUOTE]

Hi,
agree with you.

It's easier when you've seen it done. Half the battle is in removing fittings and then preparation of all deckwork and putting things back again.

I've spent far more time with my son in doing preparation on my 'new' deck, than it takes the expert to make good. The expert has overseen all our prep' and has advised all through.
I'm also going to have a more professional finish with them doing the more skilled finishing I hope.
 
Nicholas123 said:
I'm not sure it is worth paying out for a surveyor when I only intend to spend about five thousand.
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I have never used a pre-purchase survey.

Just do your sums and use your own judgement, you may want a second opinion on those decks though.

I find a firm offer, not subject to survey, concentrates the mind of the vendor. Particulary if you are willing to make the offer an look like moving on.
 
Nicholas,

I happen to run the owners association for the Anderson 22 which has a balsa core deck, as previously mentioned this is a very common design feature, and not something to be afraid of.

Out of 182 boats built I've only heard of one with a soggy deck...

Soggy and spongy to walk on are the key phrases, caused by water ingress via poorly sealed deck fittings.

The boat in question was cured of her snag by injection of WEST epoxy, though this also involved the serious pain of drying out the laminate with heaters and dehumidifiers throughout the summer; so properly sealing deck fittings pays huge dividends.

More serious repairs will involve cutting out and replacing the affected part of the deck inner layer, between the laminates, though thankfully this hasn't happened to an A22.

Balsa core is not a problem on a well fitted out boat.
 
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Rotten and soggy balsa cores happen but are thankfully very rare.They are also very repairable and it's not complicated,Just a lot of work.My previous boat was bought very cheaply and the decks were thoroughly soggy due to a previous attempt at fitting a teak deck.Epoxy ws unavailable where I was at the time so the repair was done entilrely with polyester resin and fillers.I cut off the outer skin and removed the rotten balsa which was replaced with plywood that was laid on a bed of polyester filler mixed with resin.The bottom laminate had been ground clean and a layer of chopped strand matt applied over.The voids between the bits of plywood were filled with the same mix of resin and filler and then sanded level.The required layers of CSM and roving were then laminated on top and the whole thing was filled ,smoothed and painted.That was in 1993 and the boat is still going strong.Epoxy would have been nice but apparently polyester did the job perfectly.
Making epoxy plugs for through bolting is very simple.Just drill the hole and seal the underside with tape.Then fit an allen key to a drill and insert the short curved bit in the hole.Slowly spin in it inside so that the balsa is chewed to bits.Vacuum it off and fill with a mix of epoxy resin and microfibers.Once cured redrill and you're done.
 
Advantages of balsa

Balsa cored decks are in the vast majority of fibreglass boats and are an excellent way of creating stiff light decks as well as marginal insulation. Even if the balsa does rot it shouldn't affect the seaworthiness of the boat. The best way to prevent it is:
1) over drill holes of deck fittings on top skin,
2) scrape as much balsa out as possible with allen key,
3) fill with epoxy and allow to cure
4) re-drill with correct size for fastenings and use sealant

The advantage of this method is that even if fastenings leak water will never enter as it is sealed and you wont be able to crush the balsa by over tightening or overloading which is a common cause of failure.

Even if water gets in it usually does travel as far or fast as you would imagine as balsa is laid with vertical grain so doesn't wick water along deck.
 
wklein said:
Balsa cored decks are in the vast majority of fibreglass boats and are an excellent way of creating stiff light decks as well as marginal insulation. Even if the balsa does rot it shouldn't affect the seaworthiness of the boat. The best way to prevent it is:
1) over drill holes of deck fittings on top skin,
2) scrape as much balsa out as possible with allen key,
3) fill with epoxy and allow to cure
4) re-drill with correct size for fastenings and use sealant

The advantage of this method is that even if fastenings leak water will never enter as it is sealed and you wont be able to crush the balsa by over tightening or overloading which is a common cause of failure.

Even if water gets in it usually does travel as far or fast as you would imagine as balsa is laid with vertical grain so doesn't wick water along deck.
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Sounds like good sound practical advice.I think I'll use that method if I ever acquire one,thanks.
 
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