Balancing a ketch downwind

A

Abigail

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We live on our 40 ft ketch which makes her heavy. Monday to Tuesday we had a dead downwind passage from Portugal to Morocco in quite a swell. This made her very difficult to balance and even our autohelm, a 6001, struggle to hold course. We tried lots of sail combos, tho not twin headsails. Only 130 miles.

Any thoughts on the best ways to balance a ketch downwind in swell would be very interesting.

Apologies for lack of punctuation: arabic keyboards are short on brackets and so on.

Thanks in advance
 
Not sure myself, but without double headsails, I bet it's a swine!
I would also be interested in the answers to this one.
 
I have sailed ketches a couple of times, but not really in those conditions. However, if I had been presented with that I think I would have gone with the headsail (poled out if a pole was available), main with a 'preventer' rigged and kept the mizzen furled. Most importantly, I would sail on a succession of broad reaches rather than dead downwind, much safer.
The mizzen is a long way aft of the yachts 'pivot point' and I think it would cause a lot of rounding up and little drive.
Would be very interested to hear if this works! Fair winds.
 
I am a lover of the Ketch ..yes ballance can be a problem at times and one has to try for the best sail trim.

depends how often you sail in those conditions ..to get the best practice.

but its my guess that the swell caused you more problems than the down wind.

It can be very difficult to maintain a straight line course with any type of boat with a strong following sea...the boat must be going faster than the following sea to be in control ..for comfort I would put the engine on and "motor sail" to give me the extra speed necessary to maintain control..

It can be quite easy to put up to much rag thinking that you will get more speed down wind when it infact causes the boat to slow because it is constantly changing course..

The boat needs to go faster than the sea..if your boat cant then you need the gee gees to give you the extra.

All IMHO
 
Very familiar problem! While I sail a cat now (superb downwind) I sometimes miss my old wooden Gaff Ketch, that was superb to windward and so easy to hand the sails....
Downwind with an Atlantic swell on her I would always avoid a dead downwind run and usually not set the missen at all as it would tend to round her up in anything of a blow. Very often I would sail under double headsails and main, with the bowsprit being a godsend.... 10 degrees off the wind she would self steer like this... I think we are often too worried about holding a precise course rather than finding a comfortable point of sail. If you are as I expect, bermudan rigged, I would still tend to sail with a main and cruising chute or genoa and come slightly off the wind for a reliable set. Gybeing through the wind often gets you there faster than a dead run...
 
Did you put up the mizzen staysail ? Pile on the sail and keep it trucking usually works on a boat that tracks well. The mizzen staysail has the huge advantage that if you feel overpowered it can be dropped in a flash while still running.
 
A few suggestions:

1. Don't go down wind. I always keep the wind just on one side depending on the side of the foresail. Its just like dragging a stick through water fast; it oscillates from side to side. However if you drag a ruler through with a slight bias one way, it is stable.

2. Slow down. If you are surfing down waves above your hull speed it will be unstable.

3. Keep the foresail sheet slack. The pull angle on the forestay should be nearly straight forward. (Does not work in light winds with a heavy swell)

4. Did you alter the sea state and gain on the autopilot. They do need some help to understand you want stability instead of power savings.

5. Try just the foresail and the mizzen stay sail. You get the balance to control the boat but without the sideways twisting forces caused by the main.
 
Personally I find fore and mizzen is the best for comfort dead down wind, loose a bit of speed but it dampens any rolling especially if the mizzen is say to Port and the fore to Starb`d. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
On my ketch the boat is a misery when the wind comes from directly behind, even putting the mizzen out one side and the main the other does not seem to work for long.. On my opinion the best way round is to tack using broad reaches, which is fastest point in sailing, so the increased distance, is offset by a higher speed and no hassle.
One a few occasions was have struck all sails except the mizzen and put up a chute. ( autohelm seemed quite happy with this arrangement, but clearly this depends on the wind speed
 
I've a yawl with the mizzen well aft, and with the wind aft of the beam, she gets quite overpowered.

So;

Reef/dump mizzen. Sail downwind at an angle, with a poled out foresail or cruising chute or Leg o' Mutton jib.

For long passages, how about a square sail? Can be set up with a combined sling/lifts on a staysail halyard. Not too difficult to make yourself on a home machine if its just a fairweather sail.
 
In any boat going down wind you want the pull from as far forward as possible. So no mizzen. No main or a reefed main and as much Jib as possible. I would imagine that the biggest jib on a pole would not be much less efficient than 2 jibs on poles.

As sugged you will be better off 10 degrees off the wind to keep the jib steady and avoid the main jibing. A good reason to pull it down.

If you don't have a pole for the jib you can improve setting and control with a tempory sheet coming from as far outboard as possible and forward of the usual sheeting point. A pulley shackled to the toe rail is ideal.
I am sure you will have plenty of time to try all sorts of things.
Bon Yoyage olewill
 
Hi I have had 5 ketches or yawls and are about to buy another. So you can see I like them.

Dead downwind is fine but forget main and mizzen. You probably have one pole onboard so boom out your biggest genoa with this, then set your next biggest on the other side. Use the boom with the stowed main on it squared right off and held out with a preveter as the other pole. Simply put the genoa sheet through a snatch block on the end of the boom before you square it off.
Then let her run. If she yaws about it doesn't matter there is no fear of a jibe, but in practice she will run very happily like this.
 
Thanks evryone for all this advice. We do have a pole and I think everyone is right to get the ower forward and lso to be not dad downwind. Next time I shall sort out arrangements in advance in case the wind comes dead aft like that. We were so sea sick that anything byond motorsailing was unlikely to happen. And 130 miles wasn't long enough to get over it.

Will let you know how we get on.

In the meantime, boat very comfy in Tanger harbour and we have taken the train to Fes, which is an amazing place!
 
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