backup plotters

Do you fish from your boat???

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I have an old copy of 'Dayskipper' by Pat Langley-Price. It isn't that brilliant, to be honest, and it seems to make fairly simple parts much more complicated than they actually are but it is all there.

It is important to do lots of worked examples and get the answer EXACTLY correct. OK, at sea, you are not really interested in much less than 2-5 degrees heading but only by doing the examples exactly will you be sure that you got the right method!

Don't know about the charts. I've never had an Admiraly Touchchart. I use a very soft 6B pencil and a soft rubber (that's an eraser for the benefit of our American cousins /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif) Artists' putty rubbers are excellent, too, as is a damp J Cloth at times. ISTR that Langley-Price came with a practice chart? I also downloaded a Channel Islands real time simulator which was really useful to get my hand back in from a long time away from the sea and lots of aero nav in the meantime. I just kept bashing away on difficult approaches on the simulator until everything fell into place.
 
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the entire GPS system could be turned off at any time.

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You feel a clockwork watch is less likely to fail than the entire GPS system? Interesting. Of course you could have a back up quartz watch but then you'd be relying on electronics, wouldn't you.

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I would feel far more comfortable in the hands of a sailor who has (and uses from time to time) a sextant

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To be anywhere near accurate you need to use a sextant daily day and night over an extended period of time, not just from time to time. You also need a stable platform. Even then you won't be as accurate as GPS. You also seem to be completely unaware of cloud. Grey stuff, ever noticed it?

Like it or not, non-electronic Nav has no equivalent to GPS. Even Decca was better than conventional Nav and that was pretty [--word removed--].

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I fear that it is an accident waiting to happen.

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Far, far less dangerous than trusting an EP or even a celestial Fix over a GPS position!

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People should learn the basics and that includes being completely comfortable with how to lay off a course using pencil, ruler, protractor, dividers/compasses, tide tables and some kind of tidal atlas - and, of course, a paper chart.

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You're talking about EPs? People like you who don't remember the days when the Decca was always on the blink, need to understand the limitations of conventional nav. Clockwork is not more reliable than the entire GPS system. Celestial fixes are innacurate and very often simply not possible. No matter how good you were on your precious day skipper course trusting an EP over a GPS position is just a joke.
 
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It is important to do lots of worked examples and get the answer EXACTLY correct.

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/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Thanks, that made my day!
 
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No matter how good you were on your precious day skipper course trusting an EP over a GPS position is just a joke.

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Isn't this similar to the LR thread ... it is unlikely to happen and you can have a spare at hand quite easily ... chances are that the GPS network won't let you down ... however it would be sensible to know where you are if it does ...

As for loosing the plotter to start with - you could suffer cable break, or general power failure that you cannot resolve quickly - so the most important thing to establish is "where am i" ... the next is "where am i going? and is it safe to do so?" ...
 
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And then repeat in a howling gale under a flickering red light, and trying desperately hard (while holding down the vomit) to not substitute 'plotting a course' for 'colouring in'...... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

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LOL.

The key skill with conventional Nav is never to say in advance where you're going. That way you can make a near perfect landfall every time. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Quite seriously I recall one day aiming for Braye we ended up so far to the East with and East going tide that we just changed our minds and went to Cherbourg! Which would have been ok if we hadn't been racing to Braye.
 
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Isn't this similar to the LR thread

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Maybe.

There are serious alternatives to LRs and you can probably manage without.

So all the f***-wits claim they are essential.

There's nothing that comes close to the the GPS for identifying a position out of sight of recognizable land.

So all the f***-wits say you shouldn't use 'em!

/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
I generally find that I know exactly where I am at any moment .... its where everything else is that I have trouble with! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
If my main battery system fails my GPS as well as my plotter go down.

In that event I have a handheld GPS and paper charts. If I drop the GPS then it is back to DR or sextant.

BTW - I have a 'spare' laptop onboard so I guess I could always rig this up but "paper with writing on" technology is a good fallback. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

How much redundany do you need? /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

We usually do at least one channel crossing each year with the GPS and plotter off just to remind ourselves how it's done. But then we like navigation and SWMBO is a YM instructor as well...............
 
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.....The key skill with conventional Nav is never to say in advance where you're going. That way you can make a near perfect landfall every time. .....

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Our Log always says "From X towards Y " at the top and then reords at the end where we ended up. Sometimes it's not Y!
 
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Its not the existence of £60 GPS's that worries me, its peoples total reliance on them.

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I think you are maybe overplaying the reliance. I have a plotter and backup gps, but am in no way reliant on them. I've been navigating by chart/map since I was 10, and have not lost those skills, and many I know are exactly the same. The convenience of a plotter or gps is very handy, but if they were taken away tomorrow, I wouldn't worry about it, I'd just have to work a bit harder at navigation.

[/ QUOTE ]I have no argument with your description - its probably what I would say as well (except we don't have a plotter and just use a GPS. Its the people who seem to be paranoid about losing their electronics that worry me. Its not the end of the world if you have some idea of what you are doing - as you say yourself.
 
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Its not the existence of £60 GPS's that worries me, its peoples total reliance on them.

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LOL! Wheras relying on wind up clock and a visible sky for your position is not worrying?

Sextants are not over the top compared to GPS they are completely ineffective!

[/ QUOTE ]When you navigate by traditional methods you don't always know exactly where you are. This isn't a problem if you have developed a healthy cynicism about the plot you put on the chart. This 'eye for navigation' is something that people who have always relied on GS don't always appreciate.

If you read my posts you will see that I DON'T rely on a sextant when sailing the channel. I even suggest that its not necessary. I happened to mention that I have a sextant on board. When I sail I use my GPS, the same as 99.9% of other people. However I am reasonably confident that in the even of the boat being hit by lightning or having a major electrical fire, I will carry on navigating with my Compass paper charts and Walker log.

As it happens, I also have a mechanical chronometer which is very reliable. Not sure why you think its a joke but I don't rely on that either - and I don't know what point you are making. I could even find my latitude without a watch, but so what? In the channel, after a few hours sailing you are going to reach some land. Knowing which bit of land takes a bit of skill if you haven't got a GPS. My worry is not that people rely on electronics, but that they seem to be paranoid about the possibility of the electronics failing. If they do fail, its good seamanship to be prepared.
 
So whatever point you had evaporates into thin air.

You use GPS to get an accurate position because it's the only effective way of getting an accurate fix out of sight of land since Decca went. If you lost the GPS you'd manage to struggle on without without too much drama.

Just like everyone, except a lot more self righteous.
 
What a great thread!

If nothying else it has raised the awareness of the need to "be able to navigate" and let's hope its made a few people think. Just a thought but there are a couple of places I have been (not round the UK) where the use of electronic nav aids is "not advised" because the charts are all wrong and if, for example, on a moonless night you set of west thinking the land is behind you - its not its in front of you - and if you survive till morning you can count the wrecks on the reef!

My hope for tghe future is that the electronics gets better and eventually delivers the service the manufacturers currently claim, in the mean time we navigate with lots of things and as many have noted anxiety increases when the electronics goes phutt. But when it does that standard of lookout goes up!

Just one question to the GPS masses that dont carry paper charts, if your electronic plotter capability does fail (including all the redundancy) on a moonless night far off shore how will you know what nav mark you have found - assuming you find one and even if you have a compass how will you know which course to steer?

My answer to that question is the rational that maintains the chart collection on our boat - just curious thats all.
 
Hi me little Marsupial...

Firstly - I CANNOT begin to imagine a scenario where the whole system fails inc redundancy...

But, you asked, so . /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif .. 'far offshore' heave to and sleep, fix it in the morning, no worries. more likely fire up a laptop and take a peek.. or, get the last position log from the gps loggers on a backup battery, transfer it to Encarta world atlas /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

As I said in another post.. if you KNOW you can fix the electrical system - whatever happens - and you have the redundancy - its not on the scale of anything to lose sleep about.
Joe
 
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So whatever point you had evaporates into thin air.

You use GPS to get an accurate position because it's the only effective way of getting an accurate fix out of sight of land since Decca went. If you lost the GPS you'd manage to struggle on without without too much drama.

Just like everyone, except a lot more self righteous.

[/ QUOTE ]As you have now lost me totally, can you explain what you mean? What point has evaporated? I have no idea what point you are trying to argue for.

I still get worried that people have back-ups for their back-ups of plotters or GPS. I use the electronic gizmo's all the time, but I know that I can manage without. Can someone explain why you would want to have back-ups of back-ups of back-us, with a hand-held GPS wrapped in silver foil in the oven just in case? If the electronics are as reliable as most people seem to think that they are, why the paranoia?
 
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Hi me little Marsupial...

Firstly - I CANNOT begin to imagine a scenario where the whole system fails inc redundancy...



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Fine if by fix you mean jury rig but as one old salt to another, for your own saftey please "imagine it" because it does happen and my previous post about space shuttles was to emphasize the point that modern systems are not designed to fail safe in as much as they dont leave the user with a workable senario and most often are they not repairable by mere mortals even those with knowledge and a box of tools.

Name any component and its failed at some time - hell, I even had a case of a vhf mike that distorted in the sun and rendered the coms system useless (that fault took some findinmg I can tell you) but we arranged flag and light signals with port control should it happen again (redundancy from Nelson!) - the list is endless . . . . DECCA what a joy that was - never really sure it was working and at dusk we went supersonic!
 
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Firstly - I CANNOT begin to imagine a scenario where the whole system fails inc redundancy...

[/ QUOTE ] LIGHTNING Of course you should still be left with handhelds if they had been off and disconnected at the time but you would not have a 'system' left.

If you listen to accident investigators you will see that accidents nearly always occur after a series of problems which in themselves would not have caused the accident. They don't happen very often but they do happen.

How about a lightning strike that causes a fire in the section where all of your electronics toys (like handhelds) are kept? Suppose you'd discharged your (poxy useless dry powder) extinguishers and the fire was still smouldering so you start pouring water on it. The fire is out. You sift through the steaming mess and retrieve your handheld and find that it won't work. You're not going to get your toolkit out and try to fix it...it's kaput. What wasn't damaged by the fire has been damaged by the water.

I'm not saying that charts are any more immune to accidents but let's focus on your contention that multiple redundancy will make total failure almost impossible. It won't. You can put in three entirely separate systems and you will still have total outages. Murphy guarantees that you probably have rather more outages than anyone else - he does this to prove to you that you can't outsmart him!

The more complicated the systems, the more problems you will have. I guarantee it.
 
Hi David and Marsupial..
hee hee, all good points.. but .. there is always a but lol.. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
No lightening strike would take out ALL systems - because, as you say - the backups are not connected to any bus system.
Even the backup 3500c plotter is in a box ! - not even fitted - tested, yes - then stowed. out of the way of water. along with an independent sd card).
Perhaps a neutron bomb - or a high level muti megaton blast would wipe the lot out via EMP.. but I would have a tad more to worry about in that case.

Fire, that took out all systems would sink me too.. - so unless the liferaft and grab bag burnt as well, then the etrex, spare batteries and epirb would still be ok.

It actually is about risk management nothing more.. I had the pleasure of becoming a 'Prince2 practitioner whilst in NHS management of IT, this is superb Risk management qualification. and that, again, is what its all about.

The fire or the powder or the water may well take out all your paper charts too... hmmm.

I will again, sorry, repeat that redundant systems are not thrown in, they are designed, with all the above acceptable eventualities in mind - AND the ability to fix the main items - supply and charging in this case - and then drop back to backups.

I DO have graph paper and pencils, and my Davies Mk25 and table and Bluets book... but more for nostalgia and show lol..
Also, books, pilot charts, pilot guides etc.. the pilot charts alone are fine along with a pencil.

It also depends on the type of person you are - methodical approach etc

Cost, well thats a killer for many - the biggest expense is the E120 - but that was from the USA - a grand uk delivered..
I repair marine electronics and buy and sell them - my RM 300 - great gps unit - cost me nada, seriously - just a repair needed after it had been reversed polaxed - the 3500c I had before the E120 so kept it (I had two of them lol, but sold one as the redundancy was not ample - due to the same nav cartridge !)

All the wiring and charging systems I fit myself - with redundancy in mind !.. and I DO have lightening protection - but that is NOT relied on...

Most fires on boats (not inc petrol) are caused by wiring problems - mainly lack of adequate fuses and chafe. EVERY time a wire changes size, it should be fused. it is here.. I did it.
I have auto extinguishers in the under deck bay, access holes for manual injection. and apx (Cant be bothered to count them) 10 B&Q abc extinguishers - in lazerette, cockpit lockers, under cockpit area cabins -etc etc

and YES, I CAN navigate by 'traditional' methods.

I think now, we should have thread about emergency medical treatment on board - offshore - NOT just first aid - which is precisely that - FIRST aid - in a more serious occurrence - what 'backup' have you got ?.. by the time you call up for help AND it arrives - the patient may well be dead or WILL die later -

Again, it is having the equipment, the knowledge to use it, the confidence to use it and redundancy - for example skipper n wife - very common - accident to skipper - what does wife do ?. often all eggs in one basket .
People who DO travel offshore - even inshore to be fair - in boats - should be as self sufficient as is humanly possible. Calling for assistance should literally be the absolute last resort. too often it isnt.. anyways I digress. and, I like electronics, and toys. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Actually the BIGGEST problem with paper charts is not fire, flood, wind blowing them away, out of date corrections, rot, mould or disintegration.. it is called Molly. not Murphy.
She will happily eat any paper chart.. and as she's part of the boat - the paper has to go.. Little bugger she is.
 
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