Frangipani
Active Member
I remember another episode whree they used the schooner Sir Winston Churchill - without changing her name. Most authentic, I thought /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif and I was 11 at the time!
B****** sailing films
- Thread starter snowleopard
- Start date
oldharry
Well-Known Member
Pirates of the Carribean - apart from the mast episode - all the ships set off at a rate of knots often straight into the wind.
But even the 'Old man of the Sea' Nicholas Monserrat of 'Cruel Sea', '3 Corvettes' etc fame could get it wrong: in 'The Ship that Died of Shame', they leave Lymington at around 10.00pm in a 30Kt converted naval MTB, but dont reach the Needles until dawn!
But even the 'Old man of the Sea' Nicholas Monserrat of 'Cruel Sea', '3 Corvettes' etc fame could get it wrong: in 'The Ship that Died of Shame', they leave Lymington at around 10.00pm in a 30Kt converted naval MTB, but dont reach the Needles until dawn!
Romeo
Well-Known Member
Quote:
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Master and Commander is one of the better ones though (the lesser of two weavles?) - what was the one where the guy steps off the top of the mast as his 'sinking' boat (which has to be at least 40 feet below hiw) glides up to a pontoon?
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-> Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl
I might be missing something here, but I am not absolutely sure that Pirates of the Caribbean is intended to be a historically accurate representation
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Master and Commander is one of the better ones though (the lesser of two weavles?) - what was the one where the guy steps off the top of the mast as his 'sinking' boat (which has to be at least 40 feet below hiw) glides up to a pontoon?
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-> Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl
I might be missing something here, but I am not absolutely sure that Pirates of the Caribbean is intended to be a historically accurate representation
Poignard
Well-Known Member
I have the NMM film but do you know where I could get any more Alan Villiers films? He had a series on the BBC during the 1950's called [I think] "The Sea and Ships"
Rum_Pirate
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Just been watching Master and Commander again. How can they go to all the expense of creating realism then throw it all away by having idly flapping sails in every shot? There they are in a gale off Cape Horn and there's a sail flapping like a curtain at an open window. I reckon anyone directing a sailing film should do 2 years before the mast!
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At one point the order is given "Hard a port" and they turn to Starboard. (or was it vise versa?)
Just been watching Master and Commander again. How can they go to all the expense of creating realism then throw it all away by having idly flapping sails in every shot? There they are in a gale off Cape Horn and there's a sail flapping like a curtain at an open window. I reckon anyone directing a sailing film should do 2 years before the mast!
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At one point the order is given "Hard a port" and they turn to Starboard. (or was it vise versa?)
Poignard
Well-Known Member
Quote "In the British Merchant Navy, steering orders used to be given as helm orders, that is, as though the helmsman at the wheel was actually holding a tiller: 'hard a starboard' would mean 'put your helm or tiller hard a starboard'. This would turn the ship’s rudder to port and so the ship would turn to port.
This all changed with the Merchant Shipping (Safety and Load Line Conventions) Act, 1932, which came into effect on 1 January 1933. This brought the British Merchant Navy into line with the rest of the world so that from that date all steering orders were given as wheel orders, and 'hard a starboard' did in fact mean 'turn right'." Unquote
Although the above says "Merchant Navy" I assume the Royal Navy used the same system.
This all changed with the Merchant Shipping (Safety and Load Line Conventions) Act, 1932, which came into effect on 1 January 1933. This brought the British Merchant Navy into line with the rest of the world so that from that date all steering orders were given as wheel orders, and 'hard a starboard' did in fact mean 'turn right'." Unquote
Although the above says "Merchant Navy" I assume the Royal Navy used the same system.
Allegro
Active Member
[ QUOTE ]
At one point the order is given "Hard a port" and they turn to Starboard. (or was it vise versa?)
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Yesss, hasn't that come up before? And don't I remember that for a time orders were given as if the boat was tiller steered, even though it was wheel steered. So "Hard a port" meant turn as if you were putting the tiller hard a port, and hence go to starboard.
But maybe I'm making it up...
Cheers
Patrick
At one point the order is given "Hard a port" and they turn to Starboard. (or was it vise versa?)
[/ QUOTE ]
Yesss, hasn't that come up before? And don't I remember that for a time orders were given as if the boat was tiller steered, even though it was wheel steered. So "Hard a port" meant turn as if you were putting the tiller hard a port, and hence go to starboard.
But maybe I'm making it up...
Cheers
Patrick
snowleopard
Well-Known Member
Ah no, that was correct. Until the 20th century a command of starboard helm meant move the tiller to starboard . The same applied to wheel steering so that starboard helm meant turning the wheel to port.
This website suggests the change dates from the Titanic disaster.
This website suggests the change dates from the Titanic disaster.
snowleopard
Well-Known Member
BTW, I wrote the original post while halfway through the film so I hadn't yet come to the scene after leaving the Galapagos where Surprise is 'sailing' through a calm sea at a good 8 knots with the sails hanging limply from the yards and the wake white with cavitation bubbles!!
Poignard
Well-Known Member
I thought the change in helm orders was intended to bring us [no doubt kicking and screaming] into line with the rest of the world and was nothing to do with the Titanic.
snowleopard
Well-Known Member
Yes. I was sceptical of that article. Here's another quote that makes more sense:
"Hard a starboard: in 1912, this order required the man at the wheel to turn the wheel to port, not to starboard, and the rudder and hence the ship would turn to port. This practice was a survival of the days when ships were steered by a helm or tiller bar rather than by a wheel. The helm or tiller bar was directly connected to the rudder post so that if you wanted to turn the ship go turn to port you had to put the helm to starboard. The use of these old 'helm orders' began to die out after the first World War and was obsolete by the middle 1930s."
I also found this in an Irish Merchant Shipping Act of 1932:
"(1) After the passing of this Act it shall not be lawful for any person on any Saorstát Eireann ship, when such ship is going ahead, either to give a helm or steering order containing the word "starboard" or the word "right" or any equivalent of either of those words unless such person intends that the head of such ship shall move to the right, or to give a helm or steering order containing the word "port" or the word " left " or any equivalent of either of those words unless such person intends that the head of the ship shall move to the left.
(2) Every person who does any act which is a contravention of this section shall be guilty of an offence under this section and shall be liable on summary conviction thereof to a fine not exceeding fifty pounds."
"Hard a starboard: in 1912, this order required the man at the wheel to turn the wheel to port, not to starboard, and the rudder and hence the ship would turn to port. This practice was a survival of the days when ships were steered by a helm or tiller bar rather than by a wheel. The helm or tiller bar was directly connected to the rudder post so that if you wanted to turn the ship go turn to port you had to put the helm to starboard. The use of these old 'helm orders' began to die out after the first World War and was obsolete by the middle 1930s."
I also found this in an Irish Merchant Shipping Act of 1932:
"(1) After the passing of this Act it shall not be lawful for any person on any Saorstát Eireann ship, when such ship is going ahead, either to give a helm or steering order containing the word "starboard" or the word "right" or any equivalent of either of those words unless such person intends that the head of such ship shall move to the right, or to give a helm or steering order containing the word "port" or the word " left " or any equivalent of either of those words unless such person intends that the head of the ship shall move to the left.
(2) Every person who does any act which is a contravention of this section shall be guilty of an offence under this section and shall be liable on summary conviction thereof to a fine not exceeding fifty pounds."
Sinbad2222
Well-Known Member
I thought that at that time the word "port" had yet to be used , the term then was "larboard".
Poignard
Well-Known Member
I'd be interested to know what the standard helm orders were at the time of "Master & Commander". Were course changes ordered in terms of Port[larboard] or Starboard or with reference to the wind, e.g. "luff up", "bear away" etc?
By the way, I've always understood that the reason sailing ship helmsmen stood on the windward side of the wheel was so that, for example an order such as "Down Helm" would have the same effect as putting a tiller "down", i.e. to leeward.
The answer might be found in "Seamanship in the Age of Sail" but I don't have a copy.
By the way, I've always understood that the reason sailing ship helmsmen stood on the windward side of the wheel was so that, for example an order such as "Down Helm" would have the same effect as putting a tiller "down", i.e. to leeward.
The answer might be found in "Seamanship in the Age of Sail" but I don't have a copy.