Avoiding Lymington

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Question - should a company be able to buy it's way around issues that stand in it's way?

Another question:

Should an un-elected quango be able to block legitimate activity because a company has failed to get on-message and immerse themselves in their labyrinthine processes?

Imagine the scenario where you had to prove, beyond reasonable doubt, that operating your boat did not impact the environment in any way, else you would face a team of well paid government lawyers in the High Court. Could you?

 

[PilotWolf]

ok 2 points - as the snail said above - they're running at a lower temp speed limit ... this (as you are well aware) has a massive impact on wash ....

Not sure about the $hitelink Ferries but that is not always the case. The 9m rib I used to drive made far less wash at high speed than pottering along at 8 kts - shame we could never convince the Chichester Conservancy Board of it though

W.

 

[Wiggo]

Anyone know what the drive system was on the old ferries? The Woith Schneider drives on the new ones are the same as those on the Red Funnel ferries on the Cowes-Southampton run and I suspect make the very ferries significantly more manoeuvrable and hence safer than the old ones...

 

[GRR]

A number of the pressure group have a vested interest. FACT

IF Wightlink were to pull out / move away from Lymington to a new location, not only would the terminal area become premium building land, the railway would also become redundant, and thet would make the area adjacent to the railway prime development land

Don't always believe that these 'do gooders' are not in it for their own ends.

 

[dt4134]

Not sure about the $hitelink Ferries but that is not always the case. The 9m rib I used to drive made far less wash at high speed than pottering along at 8 kts - shame we could never convince the Chichester Conservancy Board of it though

W.

I suspect the ferries would need an engine upgrade before they could plane.

 

[l'escargot]

Anyone know what the drive system was on the old ferries? The Woith Schneider drives on the new ones are the same as those on the Red Funnel ferries on the Cowes-Southampton run and I suspect make the very ferries significantly more manoeuvrable and hence safer than the old ones...

The old ferries had 4 WS drives, one on each corner, these have 2. They are less manoeuverable and bigger on the waterline and windage.

 

[l'escargot]

A number of the pressure group have a vested interest. FACT

IF Wightlink were to pull out / move away from Lymington to a new location, not only would the terminal area become premium building land, the railway would also become redundant, and thet would make the area adjacent to the railway prime development land

Don't always believe that these 'do gooders' are not in it for their own ends.

Except that none of the pressure groups are trying to get rid of the ferries from Lymington. They just want suitable ones used on the route.

 

[Nick_H]

Except that none of the pressure groups are trying to get rid of the ferries from Lymington. They just want suitable ones used on the route.

There are rumours of the ferry port being moved so the ferries don't use the river at all, though i'm not aware of any links between that rumour and the protesters, and it would never happen IMO as the surrounding coastline is SSSI I think.

 

[girlofwight]

Mixed views

I've got mixed views about all of this as a ferry user and yacht skipper.

I need to use the ferries regularly and at odd times - last year as a foot passenger I was turned away from the Lymington ferry because it was "full" - interpreting that means we don't have the requisite crew for the passenger capacity. And thats very frustrating, and yet more evidence of Wightlinks profit-above-all mentality which recognises they are, with Red Funnel, in a uncompetitive duopoly where the customer is, rather than someone needing a service, simply a cash cow.

Corporately they are not very competent - the new Ryde fastcats are a fiasco to dock, whereas Red Funnel at night now dock the Red Jet at Cowes with no shoreside crew, Wightlink still need a bow and stern man on shore and ship, and then its a backwards and forwards jiggle for several minutes till they are in. Admidetly Ryde pier head isn't the most sheltered of locations, but its not beyond the wit of human kind to sort out a ferry docking system? Oh, and who agreed to having one set of thrusters on the new fast cats amidships? Great for pinning your fast cat to the pier, not great for getting the bow or stern round if the wind catches it...

Earlier this week I was on the Fishbourne ferry, coming into Fishbourne, admittedly at low tide, and as I got up to go back to the car I saw the bow wave the ferry was making and was shocked. The skipper was going way to fast and leaving a mini Tsunami behind. I actually mentioned it to one of the officers, "Oh its the wind blowing us in", "er, no its not, you're going to fast".

Now, set against that I remember two or three years ago being on a tight beat to Cowes from the Needles and tacking right into Lymington channel as a ferry was coming out, I was about to tack to keep clear, when the ferry made a sharp turn to go astern of me, and the skipper came out to the bridge deck with a smile on his face and a cheery wave back at my wave of thanks - wish all skippers, large and small vessels, did that

I suspect its all about money - bigger ferries, less sailings, less crew, tighter schedules - and when they are private equity owned who can blame them? The sensible thing would be for the ferry services to be brought under one of the regulators, eg the rail regulator, who could inject some common sense on service, environmental and social issues as well as the investment return that the financiers are entitled to make.

And I'm getting nostalgic writing this. I remember learning to sail on Mirrors at the Royal Vic in Fishbourne, and doing capsize drills just off the ferry channel to frighten the tourists - that sounds crazy now, but H&S wasn't so front seat 30 years ago

 

[l'escargot]

There are rumours of the ferry port being moved so the ferries don't use the river at all, though i'm not aware of any links between that rumour and the protesters, and it would never happen IMO as the surrounding coastline is SSSI I think.

File that with bridges and tunnels. There is nowhere else that end of the Solent which has sea access to land where they would ever get permission to locate a ferry terminal.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

File that with bridges and tunnels. There is nowhere else that end of the Solent which has sea access to land where they would ever get permission to locate a ferry terminal.

I suppose I can understand why an enlarged ferry terminal would be refused but why not a bridge or tunnel? Is the Solent environmentally more important than the Severn, Humber or Thames estuaries, all of which have relatively new bridges over them? How come we can build tunnels under Hindhead and possibly Stonehenge and not the Solent? If there's the political will to do it, it could easily be done. One thing's for sure. If the IoW belonged to virtually any other European country, there'd be a bridge or tunnel connecting it to the mainland instead of clanky, slow, expensive ferries.

 

[l'escargot]

I suppose I can understand why an enlarged ferry terminal would be refused but why not a bridge or tunnel? Is the Solent environmentally more important than the Severn, Humber or Thames estuaries, all of which have relatively new bridges over them? How come we can build tunnels under Hindhead and possibly Stonehenge and not the Solent? If there's the political will to do it, it could easily be done. One thing's for sure. If the IoW belonged to virtually any other European country, there'd be a bridge or tunnel connecting it to the mainland instead of clanky, slow, expensive ferries.

All the places you mention are main routes, a bridge across the Solent is a cul de sac. Ignoring the choice of where to put either end and the cost of the infrastructure needed to connect to it, who would be interested in financing it? Certainly not the government, there is nothing in it for them and even if a private company funded it and charged a similar toll to a ferry fare it would be a long time before they recouped the cost.

It is as you say, the will, which just isn't there. It will certainly never be a cheap option and there lies the problem.

 

[Renegade_Master]

Interesting comments. We were in Lymington on Sunday and probably put about £200-300 less into the local economy than I expected because I wanted a new jacket and the Musto shop was shut when I walked past. Ho, hum.

Anyway, I found myself stood on the top of the wall at Berthon idly watching the world go by and whilst engaged in this important task I noticed one of the new ferries coming in. I think it was Wight Sky - although I am still smarting that Wightlink ignored my suggestions to call them "Wight Light", "Wight Heat" and "All Wight on the Night" - 1 out of 3 is not good enough!

There was certainly a fair old amount of turbulent water as the skipper engaged astern to bring the vessel to a halt.

white light white heat I remeber that it was Velvet Underground way back when

 

[benjenbav]

One thing's for sure. If the IoW belonged to virtually any other European country, there'd be a bridge or tunnel connecting it to the mainland instead of clanky, slow, expensive ferries.

But Mike, if we built a tunnel the time warp would do for the poor Caulkies good and proper.

Only joking, l'escargot

 

[benjenbav]

white light white heat I remeber that it was Velvet Underground way back when

Indeed! I hoped someone else might spot that.

 

[l'escargot]

...Only joking, l'escargot

It's alright, I'm an Overner not a Caulkhead

 

[sea urchin]

Frankly I think the 'new' ferry protest is a load of hot air.

And I might add - very expensive hot air! The judge awarded costs of £90,000 against Wight Link (ie farepayer), and £30,000 against DEFRA (ie taxpayer) according to the local media. This is in addition to the costs both organisations incurred in defending themselves in court.

I am assuming that as the relevant Govt Departments which advised Wight Link had difficulty in understanding how to implement the Habitats Regulations, then the money would have been better spent on the Eurocrats simplifying a complex area of law which must be a lawyer's dream. Perhaps the European Govt should have paid the costs then at least it would have spread them thinner.

Not only do we need clarity and simplification, but also for environmental protection measures to be weighed up with human interests too. IE some balance which recognises the needs of the local economy, local residents, and the greater public interest (ie close loopholes which allow this kind of expensive litigation waste our precious resources).

In this case everyone was a loser - the LRA did not achieve their goal, and DEFRA/Wight Link have wasted time and money (money derived from members of the wider public). The direction to seek mitigation practices could have been achieved without involving the legal process!!

Hey Ho! More reason to cut the noose put over our heads by Eurocrats!

 

[BlueSkyNick]

I have only just picked up on this thread while searching for something else. I dont want to enter the ferries debate, but just want to clarfiy that the operating ferries, their wash and turbulance don't have any impact on Berthon's moorings or fuel barge - the terminal is sufficiently far downstream. It is the river moorings which really catch it.

 

[henryf]

Sorry for the delay in posting this. As you will see from reading on it's taken me a while to get over things.

The town quay wasn't too rough from the tidal wave brought in by those new ferries. After the warnings from the river association we managed to time our entry into Lymington so as to avoid meeting the dreaded W.

Sadly on leaving Lymington we were not so lucky. I was with my wife and young daughter on board. We had taken the precaution of renewing our life jacket arming cannisters whilst in Lymington. I had briefed the family on exactly what to do in the event of meeting one of these fearsome W class monsters but thought I'd timed it so as to once again not put ourselves in danger. As we were mid way heading out to sea I saw the one thing looming into view I had been dreading. Our daughter started crying uncontrollably. My wife looked silently at me, all the colour drained from her face. I swallowed hard, and, if I'm honest passed a little wind.

I stayed hard against the Western flank of the river but as it loomed uncontrollably towards me I felt it only a matter of time before the noise of the impact twixt W class ferry and Princess motor yacht was going to be heard. The ping from the radar got ever closer together, I felt the props clip the river bed as the towering beast drew whole oceans through her Voith Schneider propulsion system. Our rudders were hard to starboard with the engines straining. I could hear my whole vessel creaking under the load but slowly we were getting dragged in, there was nothing I could do.

By now the noise of our engines with superchargers at full chat was drowned out by the wails and shrieks from my family. I finished my cup of tea and with the boat leaning over at 50 degrees somehow managed to avoid contact. As we pitched and rolled over the bow wave the entire contents of our Princess were tossed around like a washing machine. I saw scatter cushions I never even knew we owned.

Just when I thought it was all over we were hit by some strange 2nd wall of water presumably unique to the voith schneider propulsion system. It was terrible people. I stared into the black abyss of death it's self and tasted my own mortality - which was a bit like chicken.

The silence afterwards was deafening, only a lot quieter. For what seemed like an eternity no one spoke or uttered a sound. I let out a tiny little bit more wind. You could have cut the air with a knife. So we opened a window which helped.

I managed to capture photo of the ferry as it headed back into Lymington as though nothing had happened. I've seen some angry seas in my time but nothing like this.

Keep smiling.

Henry

 

[l'escargot]

I have only just picked up on this thread while searching for something else. I dont want to enter the ferries debate, but just want to clarfiy that the operating ferries, their wash and turbulance don't have any impact on Berthon's moorings or fuel barge - the terminal is sufficiently far downstream. It is the river moorings which really catch it.

If you are picking up from my post, I did say "approaching". When you go past the docked ferry heading from the RLYC moorings towards Berthon/fuel barge, the wash from the ferry holding it in the berth is quite considerable directly across the main channel at a narrow point - I can see a significant potential for passing boats being pushed into the RLYC boats.