Avionic instrument - silly idea, or what ❓

[MapisM]

As a premise, I would fancy adding to my 100% mechanical engines some instruments to monitor a couple of parameters, namely EGT and boost pressure.
If you don't mind, I suggest to leave any considerations on the usefulness of this upgrade out of the debate.
In fact, I would agree beforehand with anyone who might suggest that if a 16yo boat clocked 1500+ hour without such instruments, it means that they are far from being essential.
Otoh, it's the whole pleasure boating that ain't essential...

Now, on top of the costs and the installation hassle, my main concern is that there's a total of 6 parameters involved: one EGT for each engine bank, i.e. 2 x 2 engines, plus one boost pressure x 2 engines.
And I really don't like the idea of 6 dedicated gauges, which btw I would struggle to fit in the existing dashboard.
Otoh, I have a nice space that I could use, where the original 3" VDO sumlog is still installed but, being a total POS, it doesn't work.
And it's totally useless, anyhow.

So, after looking around a bit, I came across the thing below (just click on the image to open the specs webpage), which on paper could manage all the parameters I'm interested in and then some, in a single 3" digital gauge.
With the added bonus of allowing to set specific alarms, btw.
The caveat being that... It's actually an instrument built for airplanes!
Now, wadduthink folks, is there something I'm missing, if I'm considering to use it in a boat?
Comments on the brand/reliability from pilots possibly familiar with this stuff are also welcome.
Thanks in advance!

 

[5teve]

I don't consider it daft as I have looked at these too. I have a 22 year old boat with over 1500 hours on the engine.. so similar situation as well.

I think I am resigned to going Arduino and then possibly converting to signalk via a raspberry pi to a screen or to a MFD. I can at least make things how I want.. assuming I can actually do it... Sensors with Arduino seem pretty straightforward as do displaying the readings.. just not sure about the signal K and raspberry pi.. looks like it will do everything and do it well if I can get my non coding ./ Electronic brain working...

Tbh I am stunned there are no options for twin engine monitoring.. the closest I have got I'd the exhaust monitor from silicon marine which displays 2 exhaust temps with settable alarms but is raw water / mixer temp only. When I asked them about integration with egt or a version that does egt he seemed baffled as he'd not been asked for it.

Anyway if you go for it I'd be interested how you go...

The other option although probably far more expensive is the seaboard marine displays and sensors (for Cummins but I think they can mod them for others) they look a nice bit of kit but too exxy for me.

Steve

 

[LittleSister]

What would you do with the information once you had it? (Genuine question.)

 

[MapisM]

What would you do with the information once you had it? (Genuine question.)

Avoid shortening the engines life by overloading them (unbeknown to any helmsman who can only rely on "normal" instruments) is the short answer.
But if you've got several hours to kill, you can check out these old threads for more details:
Fitting EGT probes+gauges to diesel (MAN) engines
What governs diesel engine revs at max. load? Governor or props?

 

[MapisM]

Tbh I am stunned there are no options for twin engine monitoring.

That's the main reason why I like the above instruments.
It isn't obvious from the above pic alone, but if you check its specs, and possibly download also the manual, you will see that one of them would be enough to handle twin engines.
Just forget the fact that for thermocouples they distinguish between EGT and CHT.
That's only relevant in aviation petrol engines, but by using all four "channels" for EGT, you can handle a twin V-engines setup.
And ad maiora non-V twin engines of course, where there's only one cylinder bank and one exhaust manifold.

 

[Assassin]

No judgements Mapis, just my own experiences.

We have used EGT for many years and in many cases they are useless as many engine designs now incorporate technologies to prevent excessive EG temps but used correctly they are a godsend, in 2011 they were fitted to Toyota engines fitted in off road vehicles and they went to Australia off roading in the outback in the middle of summer and they identified several issues and the information they provided was invaluable in setting up these engines to counter excessive EG temps.

In RR engines they were used at the test facility in Derby and I remember the Canadians coming over for the roll out of the Trent engine new range and they managed to incorporate their technologies into these engines and they linked directly to the combustion ECU, not just to monitor the EG temps, but also to make in service comparison tests with other aspects of the engines performance and particularly the multi stages of bypass temperatures and this led to the reprogramming of these engines from the running data.

In static engines they are either useful or a waste of money and older non ECU controlled engines they provided useful information about the engines load and an alarm setting proved very useful for engines appraching near peak EG temps and they were unloaded temporarily to reduce the EG temps and our experiences suggested around another 2000 hours on average, increase in engine life.

 

[Portofino]

What would you do with the information once you had it? (Genuine question.)

Reduce the rpm accordingly if EGTs soar .

Adjust cruise speed .

Start thinking about the next stern gear scrub ....pronto !

For some ......mentally play around with “ do I really need all this crap “ .............excess weight/ kgs .

 

[jrudge]

Bear in mind it is likely not waterproof so lower helm only. Of course no one uses the lower helm !

 

[MapisM]

We have used EGT for many years and in many cases they are useless as many engine designs now incorporate technologies to prevent excessive EG temps but used correctly they are a godsend

That's precisely my train of thought, since (AFAIK) no mechanical engines ever incorporated such technologies.
Actually, as I was told, not all the electronically controlled engines do, either. Not the earliest ones, at least.
But that's irrelevant anyhow, for myself - though that might be relevant for some other folks.

Bear in mind it is likely not waterproof so lower helm only. Of course no one uses the lower helm !

Good point, J.
Indeed my understanding is that the above thing isn't suitable for external installation, but I'm not so concerned about that, for three reasons:
Firstly, I'm not thinking to keep an eye constantly peeled for these parameters - life's too short.
I'm just interested to check now and then how they react to different conditions, like before/after refueling, or when the hull is more or less clean throughout the season, or at different cruising speeds, whatever.
So, helming from the p/house for a while, whenever I'll be interested to make such checks, is no big deal.
Secondly, I could at least hear the alarm also from the upper helm, if and when it should go off.
Lastly, the cables path from the e/r to the lower helm is much shorter and easier to handle! ?

 

[Mr Googler]

https://www.mglavionics.eu/lignes/mgl/pdf/EN/Blaze/Blaze EMS-2.pdf

bit of light reading for you M ?

 

[BruceK]

I should avoid reading these threads as they invariably cost me money I can ill afford and seldom reduce my anxiety that going balls to the wall is not the best approach. Every time I manage to push the EGT question to the back of my mind, and gloss over Porto's evangelism on the matter, one of the trusted circle of advisors brings it up and the anxiety starts all over again. This time I'm blaming Vas. It's his influence, I'm certain. Always fettling. It's contagious.

However, to answer your question MapisM. I think it's too busy. And as such would almost certainly not compliment the existing dash, so should they even go there if not for constant monitoring? The second question is the range of calibration, I guess not being analogue it doesnt really matter but the bottom looks like bar graphs and would want to check you can adjust scale to your parameters.

 

[5teve]

Just forget the fact that for thermocouples they distinguish between EGT and CHT.
That's only relevant in aviation petrol engines, but by using all four "channels" for EGT, you can handle a twin V-engines setup.
And ad maiora non-V twin engines of course, where there's only one cylinder bank and one exhaust manifold.

You could always use and alarm CHT on the exhaust (if non V engine) - lower temps admittedly but i'm assuming with a thermocouple (does it support different types) strapped to the exhaust pipe you could monitor raw water loss too...

I vote that you try it Then all of us uneducated ones can sleep easy that it works / does not work

Steve

 

[vas]

This time I'm blaming Vas. It's his influence, I'm certain. Always fettling. It's contagious.

well better take cover as I'm preparing the engine sensor writeup
if the weather is crap over the w/e I'll post it, you may be lucky was 18today and managed to get some work done on the boat!

V.

 

[BruceK]

Was 18 in the Welsh Med too. Fahrenheit

 

[Assassin]

Was 18 in the Welsh Med too. Fahrenheit

Bruce, you forgot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Was that + or - 18?

 

[Assassin]

Mapis, you have to ask some serious questions.

How many cruises or cruising hours do you do per year.
What are the risks of elevated EGT's on your boat.
What time limits do the manufacturers set on using elevated EGT's on your engine.

In reality it would appear to serve no purpose on your boat as you don't do the cruising time so they are not likely to be raised and if I am correct with your engine it can operate with elevated EGT's for 15% of the time based upon the 1 hour cycles, and your engines are not prone to running elevated EGT's to begin with.

On large commercial vessels they are a necessity when they run laden for most of their working lives, carrying thousands of tonnes of cargo; and the only time they really stop their engines is during docking for loading and unloading, and the costs of replacing an engine and the ships downtime is a major expense.

 

[MapisM]

However, to answer your question MapisM. I think it's too busy.
And as such would almost certainly not compliment the existing dash, so should they even go there if not for constant monitoring?
The second question is the range of calibration, I guess not being analogue it doesnt really matter but the bottom looks like bar graphs and would want to check you can adjust scale to your parameters.

Aesthetically, yes, the above thing next to all other (100% analogue) gauges would match as well as one Crocs sandal together with a Cheaney shoe.
And yes, since I'm not so interested in constant monitoring, I could as well fit the instrument elsewhere.
But being a fan of the form follows function principle, I don't mind a clashing style, as long as it serves its purpose well. If I'd rate form over function (which is actually a popular approach these days, and not only with boats), I'd just keep the existing and totally useless sumlog... ?

Otoh, don't be mislead by the above pic alone, because the instrument is nicely configurable and exploits very well its digital screen, allowing several different views and scales.
On top of allowing both graphical and numeric displays, and individual, customizable alarms.
So, I have very little doubt that from a functionalities standpoint it would work well.

 

[MapisM]

well better take cover as I'm preparing the engine sensor writeup

Go ahead, I for one can't wait to read it!

 

[MapisM]

You could always use and alarm CHT on the exhaust (if non V engine) - lower temps admittedly but i'm assuming with a thermocouple (does it support different types) strapped to the exhaust pipe you could monitor raw water loss too

I didn't think of that application (and I would use all four temperature "channels" anyhow), but if you are interested I believe that what you are envisaging is feasible.
In fact, the instrument manual specifies that the monitored temp range can stretch from -100 to +1200 degrees Celsius (yes, MINUS 100, not a typo)!

 

[MapisM]

Mapis, you have to ask some serious questions.
...

All good points, Assassin.
In fact, I did admit upfront (see first OP paragraph) that this is just an itch I'd like to scratch, sort of.
Otoh, if I find a way to monitor these parameters without selling a kidney, the upgrade wouldn't be anywhere near the top of my personal ranking for money wasted with boats! ?
Not to mention that the inoperative 3" VDO sumlog right in the middle of the dashboard irritates me a bit!