autopilots for tiller steering

[Daydream believer]

I expect they have used this
bandg.com/en-gb/bg/type/autopilots/autopilot-drive-units/sd10-sailboat-drive-186436bc/
and mounted the motor in a cockpit locker then run the cable through the side to a tiller arm aft of the rudder stock.

Might be possible if you could find a way of making a rudder head fitting with an aft facing tiller arm, a way of sealing the cable and did not mind it coming across the access to the transom.

View attachment 160145

Edit. Sorry duplication of post#15 on a different boat.

Going off thread here.
That seems very wasteful of cockpit space. What sort of boat is it?

 

[Tranona]

Right on topic!

It is the boat the OP has. A Sadler 290 NOT a 29 which is a completely different boat.

 

[Buck Turgidson]

I've sailed 20,000+ miles with one of these on a 36ft / 5,000kg boat
Type RS Sailboat Drives - Octopus Drives
Has a clutch and, also important, a rudder reference sensor which significantly improves course keeping - we've used it surfing at 13-15 knots while racing.
B&G used to sell them (though never really marketed them) as the SD10 drive, though I don't think that's the case anymore.
Whether it fits your boat will depend on the orientation of the tiller relative to coamings/cockpit seats etc. The motor is below deck drives a bowden cable that needs to exit just above or just below the tiller.
View attachment 160137

Hudson Marine still have them online but not sure if in stock. I thought about using one when I was planning my upgrades some years ago.
SD10

 

[Birdseye]

the sd10 is an interesting idea though I do wonder if I could use a drive that is normally mounted below decks in the same way as the photo. will have a look tomorrow.

the key issue is the clutch. if my current raymarine ram had a clutch the whole issue would go away - its the putting the ram on and off and engaging / disengaging the pilot that is the issue

 

[flaming]

Friends just completed the fastnet doublehanded in a J97. (Rather them than me!) They had a plumbed in below decks autopilot. The J97 tiller setup looks almost identical. So I'll ask again - are you absolutely sure you cannot fit a proper plumbed in pilot?

 

[Birdseye]

Anything is possible - just money in the end. But it would make a mess of the aft double cabin ( in a 29footer - daft really) . And I am not convinced that it would be a total answer. The tiller pilot is a decent one yet still struggles if the boat ever gets badly out of balance. Overall its a messy situation, part boat balance, part cockpit design, part pilot system and it has to be said part geriatric skipper who cant move as fast as he did 30 years ago when previously racing a dignhy like cruiser.

The boat is new to me so I am going down to the marina to get in some serious practice tomorrow to try and iron out such issues as sail balance. Progress is being made but its just frustrating after a decade or sailing a boat as easily controlled as the Starlight 35. Whatever the conditions that boat never bit back, never rounded up and the under deck hydraulic pilot never had a hissy.

Out of interest how did your pals install the below deck system? They must have had to cut into the rudder tube to fit a quadrant.

 

[ridgy]

All the boats I have seen with below deck tiller pilots have a seal where the rudder stock enters the hull meaning the shaft is exposed after that.

 

[Tranona]

Friends just completed the fastnet doublehanded in a J97. (Rather them than me!) They had a plumbed in below decks autopilot. The J97 tiller setup looks almost identical. So I'll ask again - are you absolutely sure you cannot fit a proper plumbed in pilot?

I think you will find that under the cockpit floor the rudder stock has an exposed part with either a quadrant or a tiller arm on it to take the drive. The seal on top of the upper rudder bearing will be haoused in the hull. On the Sadler, pretty sure that the stock is enclosed right up to the housing moulded into the cockpit floor which has the upper bearing and seal.

The J97 was designed that way to take an under deck pilot drive. other modern tiller steered boats are also designed that way, particularly those with twin rudders with a linkage below decks. The Sadler is a 20 year old design - long before such ideas came in. Later designs from Jones such as the Rustler 33 will take a below decks drive.

 

[B27]

All the boats I have seen with below deck tiller pilots have a seal where the rudder stock enters the hull meaning the shaft is exposed after that.

My boat is built with the rudder stock in a tube from the hull surace to the deck.
To install a below-decks quadrant, I could cut the tube and either install shaft seals or some sort of bellows/gaiter affair which I've seen on other boats.
My previous boat had this, it also had a moderately tall half bulkhead forward of the rudder tube in case the seals failed.
The bulkhead is also a strong thing to mount the fixed end of a ram on.

 

[Tranona]

That is the whole point of this discussion. The boat has to be designed to take a below decks pilot with a tiller, as some are. It is not a retrofit without major surgery. Post #15 shows how a cable drive can be used if there is space in a locker to fit the drive, usually a cable in such a way that it can link up to the existing tiller.

Post#20 shows the cockpit of the OPs boat and I guess it would be possible to fit the Octopus/B&G drive in the locker on the port side or aft cabin on the starboard with the cable coming through to the tiller. However it would be exposed and restrict access to the transom.

The tower moulding under the tiller is, I believe the top of the rudder tube and the upper seal, so no chance of fitting a ram under the cockpit floor.

 

[Birdseye]

Interestingly Tranona, I have a PDF of the original designers drawing for the rudder. This shows the adaption for wheel steering and indeed a deeper rudder for a fin keel - neither of which were ever built. It shows where the quadrant should be mounted if I went for a below deck system. But there is no sign of any sort of water seal between tube and shaft - the design simply relies on the top of the outer tube being 850mm above dwl and sealed to the deck. There are bearings of course - both edson standard roller bearings though a report I have from an owner who took his steering to bits shows polymer bushes in ally frames as what was used by the builder.

The boat has a beamy stern but I still would not want to cut the tube for a quadrant without some sort of water seal.

This has the makings of a project!

 

[B27]

If the real problem with the tillerpilot is a lack of a clutch, might it be possible to replace the balljoint connection between ram and tiller with some kind of clutch?
I used to have a wheelpilot contraption which engaged with a mechanical clutch, I used it more as a wheel lock than as an autopilot.

Maybe extend the ram with a stainless rod, and have some sort of lever-engaged clamp on the tiller to either slide or engage?

 

[Tranona]

Interestingly Tranona, I have a PDF of the original designers drawing for the rudder. This shows the adaption for wheel steering and indeed a deeper rudder for a fin keel - neither of which were ever built. It shows where the quadrant should be mounted if I went for a below deck system. But there is no sign of any sort of water seal between tube and shaft - the design simply relies on the top of the outer tube being 850mm above dwl and sealed to the deck. There are bearings of course - both edson standard roller bearings though a report I have from an owner who took his steering to bits shows polymer bushes in ally frames as what was used by the builder.

The boat has a beamy stern but I still would not want to cut the tube for a quadrant without some sort of water seal.

This has the makings of a project!

I would imagine the rudder tube is bonded to the hull with the lower bearing inside and then bonded at the top end to that tower which contains the upper bearing. You would not need a quadrant, just a tiller arm such as Jefa make.. On my Bavarias the rudder tube was free standing and ended above the waterline with just a rubber "sock" clamped to the tube and the stock. No actual seal. The stock went up through a bearing housing in the cockpit floor with the top protruding to take the emergency tiller.

You would have to see if there is enough height to reduce the tube enough to get the tiller arm on the stock and a means of sealing the top of the tube. Then, of course space to mount the drive. I expect you can access this area through the aft cabin.