autopilots for tiller steering

[Birdseye]

pondering changing my Raymarinepilot for something more effective and powerful - boat is 29ft and a surprising 5 tonnes . A quick google brings up only simrad and raymarine but I know that the French and possibly others make them for tiller steered race boats bigger than mine. Any recommendations . My boat isnt directionally that stable so I need a system with both power and speed.

 

[Tranona]

You already have the "best" there is if it is an ST 4000 or EV 100.

The tiller steered boats that are better are those where it is possible to fit a tiller arm direct to the rudder stock and use a below decks ram with a clutch as used for wheel steered boats. The design of your boat does not allow this.

Functionally the limitation is that the ram for tiller steered boats does not have a clutch so cannot be left attached to the tiller. If you have an EV 100 you have the same control unit as the below decks and the ram has more than enough power for your boat. A remote on a lanyard round your neck may help reduce the time to operate the AP but you can't avoid having to attach the ram each time you want to use it.

 

[robmcg]

Pelagic Autopilot Systems

 

[Tranona]

That is an alternative and has been touted on the forum many times. However it offers no significant advantages over the Raymarine except that arguably the ram (which is a commercial item usually used for opening and closing blinds) is more robust. It does not have autotack and cannot be integrated easily into Raymarine networks having only NMEA 0183 input for wind.

Also it is not available in the UK so you have to import from the US and it is no cheaper.

 

[robmcg]

A quick google brings up only simrad and raymarine but I know that the French and possibly others make them for tiller steered race boats bigger than mine. Any recommendations .

The French one you elude to is probably an NKE system which is a fantastic offshore pilot but is very, very expensive.

 

[Lightwave395]

My tiller steered 8.5 ton 12M boat has a Raymarine S1G controller, type 1 underdeck ram and ST6002 control head which continues to work very effectively after 17 years ( have replaced the control head as it got damaged )

 

[Tranona]

The French one you elude to is probably an NKE system which is a fantastic offshore pilot but is very, very expensive.

It is also under deck so not suitable for tiller steered boat where the ram has to be attached to the tiller rather than the rudder stock.

Nobody makes a ram/actuator with a clutch that is suitable for outside use. I would guess apart from the technical problems the potential market is too small.

 

[Birdseye]

It is also under deck so not suitable for tiller steered boat where the ram has to be attached to the tiller rather than the rudder stock.

Nobody makes a ram/actuator with a clutch that is suitable for outside use. I would guess apart from the technical problems the potential market is too small.

I am sure that I have seen under deck rams which are longitudinal and single unit rather than like my old one which was a seperate motor and hydraulic pump.

Where is it attached is IMO a minor issue since they are all attached to a lever arm ( tiller?) coupled to the rudder stock. You could have attached my old under deck one above deck using the tiller but the issue is housing the mechanism

 

[Buck Turgidson]

It is also under deck so not suitable for tiller steered boat where the ram has to be attached to the tiller rather than the rudder stock.

Nobody makes a ram/actuator with a clutch that is suitable for outside use. I would guess apart from the technical problems the potential market is too small.

Not true.
It can drive a Raymarine or other ram above deck and often does.

 

[Tranona]

I am sure that I have seen under deck rams which are longitudinal and single unit rather than like my old one which was a seperate motor and hydraulic pump.

Where is it attached is IMO a minor issue since they are all attached to a lever arm ( tiller?) coupled to the rudder stock. You could have attached my old under deck one above deck using the tiller but the issue is housing the mechanism

The problem is that they are not waterproof which is why they are for below deck use only.

 

[flaming]

Why can't you fit an under deck on your boat? What's the issue?

 

[Tranona]

Not true.
It can drive a Raymarine or other ram above deck and often does.

See my post above. Yes, they can be physically mounted above decks but are not designed for that - if they were Raymarine would sell them for that application. As it is the only ram that can be used above decks is the one they specifically make called the "tiller pilot". Actually is confusing because the "tiller" means that it is attached to the tiller as in the smaller all in one pilots because that is what the vast majority of the demand is for - existing boats where there is no means of attaching a quadrant or tiller arm to the rudder stock below decks as in a wheel steered boat. Look at the OPs boat. The rudder stock comes up through the bottom of the boat to a small plinth on the cockpit floor that houses a seal and an upper bearing. Tiller attached to the top. No exposed shaft. Other boats like mine and yours that might use this pilot have transom hung rudders.

There are some modern tiller steered boats of this size and bigger particularly twin rudder boats which have under deck mechanisms that allow for the fitment of an under deck pilot, either hydraulic, electric ram, rotary or cable drive.

The two shortcomings of the tiller pilot are the lack of clutch which means the ram cannot be left attached while steering by hand and unreliability of the ram because of difficulty with sealing. There is also a size limitation which is around 5 tonnes as in the OPs boat. OK for motoring and lighter airs but struggles in heavier weather or if a boat has poor inherent directional stability. There are better, more powerful rams available such as the one used by Pelagic that some people have used, but still non clutch.

 

[Tranona]

Why can't you fit an under deck on your boat? What's the issue?

Look at the photos of the cockpit.

 

[garymalmgren]

RE: Look at the photos of the cockpit.

Where are these photos?

gary

 

[r_h]

I've sailed 20,000+ miles with one of these on a 36ft / 5,000kg boat
Type RS Sailboat Drives - Octopus Drives
Has a clutch and, also important, a rudder reference sensor which significantly improves course keeping - we've used it surfing at 13-15 knots while racing.
B&G used to sell them (though never really marketed them) as the SD10 drive, though I don't think that's the case anymore.
Whether it fits your boat will depend on the orientation of the tiller relative to coamings/cockpit seats etc. The motor is below deck drives a bowden cable that needs to exit just above or just below the tiller.

 

[Daydream believer]

It is also under deck so not suitable for tiller steered boat where the ram has to be attached to the tiller rather than the rudder stock.

Nobody makes a ram/actuator with a clutch that is suitable for outside use. I would guess apart from the technical problems the potential market is too small.

The Figaro 2 &3 are tiller steered & i cannot think of any other ( class, or one design) boat under 35 ft that works its autopilot as hard. I cannot recall seeing any with the ram attached directly to the tiller. That is not to say that none are, But I have spent ages admiring them & may have missed it. Come to that I will dig up my Pogo pics to check as well

But as others have stated NKE are ridiculously expensive. I was discussing some details on a Figaro2 with an owner at a regatta in Dieppe, who told me (pre covid), that prices started at circa 15,000 euros & went up from there

Edit. Just dug up a Figaro2 pic & the autopilot is under deck

 

[flaming]

Look at the photos of the cockpit.

I wasn't aware of them? I think the OP has a Sadler 290? But I'm not sure that's been mentioned in this thread.

In any case, it isn't about the cockpit, it's about what happens under the cockpit floor. You may be right that it's impossible, but having not looked under the cockpit floor of a Sadler 290 (and again assuming that I've remembered the OP's boat correctly) I wouldn't know whether this was in fact impossible.

Hence the question.....

 

[flaming]

On the subject of indoor/outdoor rams. The J88s had an interesting solution a while back. They used an "indoor" ram, mounted under the deck but exiting the deck through a seal and an extended arm to the rudder. (And I do mean rudder, they ran the pilot to the back of the transom hung rudder). Something similar might be possible if the OP really cannot get a proper under deck install to work. but it does rather feel like something of a overkill solution.

 

[Daydream believer]

pondering changing my Raymarinepilot for something more effective and powerful - boat is 29ft and a surprising 5 tonnes . A quick google brings up only simrad and raymarine but I know that the French and possibly others make them for tiller steered race boats bigger than mine. Any recommendations . My boat isnt directionally that stable so I need a system with both power and speed.

A sadler 29 could not be anywhere near as directionally unstable as my Hanse 311.
My solution to assist in reducing the problem of heavy helm ( I am on my 7th autopilot or autopilot ram or component), was to look at the mast rake, rig tension first. Both these asisted greatly & actually aided performance. It did cost me a lot because my furler had a fixed length forestay & I eventually had 5 forestays. That resulted in paying to have the mast dropped & re fitted every time I experimented. I did finally find the sweet spot & it took a lot of the load off the autopilots. But I also had new mainsails & jibs. New sails do help helm balance.
Obviously the OP will not want to go down this route, I just cannot help playing, but there are options one can try & I suggest rig setup first.

However, when it gets windy I use my Aries wind steering. It has all the power it is heavy & the OP could find some second hand lighter models on the market . Just needs some research. Thry are as quick to set up as an autopilot. Great, even for short legs. Mine is always set when ever I leave the berth. I motor out using the autopilot but as soon as the sails are up & i am sorted I use the Aries. Best thing is that, unlike the death trap AV 100 Raymarine, that can cause seriously dangerous gybes, it still keeps going.

 

[Tranona]

On the subject of indoor/outdoor rams. The J88s had an interesting solution a while back. They used an "indoor" ram, mounted under the deck but exiting the deck through a seal and an extended arm to the rudder. (And I do mean rudder, they ran the pilot to the back of the transom hung rudder). Something similar might be possible if the OP really cannot get a proper under deck install to work. but it does rather feel like something of a overkill solution.

I expect they have used this
bandg.com/en-gb/bg/type/autopilots/autopilot-drive-units/sd10-sailboat-drive-186436bc/
and mounted the motor in a cockpit locker then run the cable through the side to a tiller arm aft of the rudder stock.

Might be possible if you could find a way of making a rudder head fitting with an aft facing tiller arm, a way of sealing the cable and did not mind it coming across the access to the transom.



Edit. Sorry duplication of post#15 on a different boat.