Autopilot or windvane?

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pgurnett

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What is the general consensus of having a windvane or autopilot or both? Cost considerations play a big part in self-steering purchase, and there is no "cheap" approach. An electric autopilot seems to require investing in a hi-output alternator, regulator/controller and substantial battery bank. A wind vane requires none of that but is not cheap nor will it do as well downwind? What are your thoughts? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
 
Wind vanes are fine for long passages in steady winds - trade wind stuff. They have little value close to land, with more variable winds and pilotage issues. They're also fragile things in a Mediterranean mooring situation.

Autopilots usually use much less power than a fridge, so if you're generating for a fridge, that'll be adequate. And they have great convenience when short handed close to land - or when you're motoring.

So it really depends what situations you're aiming to handle. They are largely complementary machines, suitable for different situations.
 
Depends on your type of sailing and your boat - I've both and there are definite differences - it's not either or.

I sail about 3500nm a season, mainly single-handed, the boat is tiller steered.

The windpilot I have is a Navik - perfectly good at steering the boat if a little fragile - but that makes it lighter.

A 29'10" waterline length is about the limit of the navik's power.

All windpilots are utterly useless in surfing conditions, unless your boat is a staid, undercanvassed plodder, you have to choose the conditions carefully.
Mine only operates in apparent windspeeds above 10knots, but for running under the spinnaker it is slightly better than the autopilot and for beating it's better - making to windward in gusts and never being taken aback by small shifts. However, with a non-overlapping sail the boat needs no pilot of any kind on a brisk beat - you can steer by sheet tension, with the tiller maintained sightly to windward by shock cord.

I make a point of only using the wind pilot offshore, variations caused by wind-shadows and the volume of traffic make it too hair-raising.

The autopilot is an early Autohelm 4000ST - the all-in-one pilots I found to be too liable to malfunction due to water ingress. The control head is just inside the mainhatch, the fluxgate compass under the saloon table and I have two actuators and two separate mounts (though only use one at a time). I've had either actuators pack up or an end-pin fatigue. Usually I have alternate actuators serviced annually by Raymarine - new brushes, replacement leadscrews and seals are the only parts I've needed in 16 years, whilst lighting and LCD have both needed replacing in the control head.

The disadvantage of any pilot wind or electric is that they cannot anticipate behaviour as can a good helmsman - hence the possibility of gybing when you have quartering seas. the advantage is that they are tireless, whereas a helm starts deteriorating after about 40" and is dysfunctional after 120" continuous in brisk conditions.
Additionally the electric autopilot need to have the sails reefed early, as its travel is insufficient to correct any skittish behaviour (a good discipline).

If I had to choose between the two I'd definitely settle on the electric autopilot as being the more useful for most cruising sailors - though I have the NMEA pilot-to-GPS connection I tend not to use it, having seen what happens to light aircraft flying under autopilot from radio-beacon to radio-beacon (that dates one in this era of GPS).

A word of warning - the marketing people in all companies are incorrigibly optimistic, the engineers more realistic - always go one model up on the claimed pilot handling capability.
 
jimb - "Wind vanes are fine for long passages in steady winds - trade wind stuff. They have little value close to land, with more variable winds and pilotage issues."

Use our Aries frequently around W coast Scotland. Many's the time I've smiled in wonder as it magically helms thro' the bad stuff. So long as you have a safe CTS and watch XTE it's a valuable short handed friend.
 
I agree about the 2 systems being complementary. Disadvantage with tiller arm pilot is that it can jump off its mount in a roll. Not sure what could be done about this.
Now - which wind vane system do you recommend? Our boat is small-ish (Sadler 29). We are contemplating a short-handed trip from La Rochelle to the Med. via the Spanish rias. (Any advice on the general trip welcome too.)
 
Hi Jenny
WHEN are you thinking of sailing ???

The NAVIC is a good choice for the sub 10 Mtrs boat... any servo pendulum will also do.. usually more powerful than the HV, but not a need usually. In your boat size, I think you could reliably buy any type.

Dont miss La Coruna.. super.. if you can, spend a few weeks here.. also, dont miss THIS ria... many do... its a stop off.. nope, its a super city.. secluded marina, quiet... local produce everywhere.. everything one ever needed for the boat.. but, you need to search !!!!...

The rias are, well, great,,.. but not the B all and END all of this coast.. you will miss a lot if you head for the infamouse rias,, a bit like the yanks visiting england for the first time.. you GOTTA do stonehenge... Wells.. Stratford.. etc etc ad infinitum....


The EXPERIENCE is here in LC.... if you sample it, you KNOW Galicia more than if you spent 6 months here.

Then, if ya must.. go and explore a wide river with nothing but a bar and a few cafes.. great.. if eating out every night.. but no.. most dont do that... so you are sat at anchor.. great !

The more ya stay the more ya save.. we have it down to less than 6 euros a day ... negates the need to move on quickly unless you have a time window....

If it FEELS GOOD....................................

Do It,,,

Old message.. same impact.... dont let any sod tell ya they know better....
 
never

had the arm jump off the pin in 15 years (or about 40,000nm) on a roll or anything except a sharp upward pressure.

The Navico end and pin were much better than the Autohelm one - 1st a nice rounded shoulder, instead of a fatigue-provoking 90degree ridge and a press fit onto the pin.
 
They have stopped making navic.

Have a look at the windpilot that looks a nice bit of gear and have a look at the sea feather i fitted one of these to an albin vega and it really is a well made piece of kit.

Rob
 
We have had a Windpilot Pacific for more than 10 years. Excellent in the Atlantic where it was used frequently. In the Med we found it less and less useful, as wind became more variable, and more of a nuisance as stern swimming became more enjoyable and stern-to berthing became more attractive. We have now removed it and it's for sale. Good condition, one careful owner.
 
Wind vanes are absolutely fine downwind. Also somebody said they can't handle surfing conditions - odd that, since the single handed round the world boys (in the later surfing boats) all used wind vanes (mainly Monitors I believe).

Back to the question, as others said, it depends on what type of sailing you are going to do.

If you are going long distance/ocean it makes sense to have both - autopilot for no wind (we only use the autopilot when motoring so power use is not an issue).

If you are going long distance with just an autopilot you need to buy an autopilot that is sized one size bigger than your boat and to carry a complete set of spares (preferably a complete spare unit). The reason is big waves and cross swells put huge strain on rudder and the number of ocean autopilot failures is legendary (and seriously bad news for short handed crews).

Given the extra expenditure needed spares/spare autopilot and that you will be sailing most of the time I'd suggest spending that money on a windvane.
 
I would recommend both - particularly if you are planning long passages.

We sailed for two years in the Med with an Autohelm 6000 and it performed well but it does put a drain on the batteries when sailing - particularly when the going gets a bit rough and it is working hard. In rough weather we tended to hand steer which is OK for a short time but is tiring and can be very wet.

As we were planning an Atlantic crossing we spent a long time thinking about a windvane vs a spare autopilot and some additional means of battery charging to keep it going. Eventually decided to go for a windvane (Hydrovane) and are now convinced it was the right decison.

We now use the windvane when sailing on all long passages and it is a great feeling when the boat is being propelled and steered by the wind alone.
Other advantages we have found with the windvane are that in rough weather it keeps working - it does not complain about steering in the cold and wet and the crew on watch can remain snug and dry under the spray hood.
If the wind shifts, the sails do not flog and we have never gybed - the boat just gently changes course so we can adjust sails and get back on track in our own good time. With the autopilot (ours is a simple point and go type control with no sophisticated features), flogging sails or a gybe are always a possibility if you do not keep an eye on what is going on.

We have now crossed the Atlantic - mostly downwind and the windvane performed really well in apparent winds from 5 knots to 40 knots. Having done this passage with a windvane we would not want to be without it.

The autopilot does have its place aswell - when motoring, sailing in very light airs, on short passages when we have not fitted the windvane rudder. We would not want to be without the autopilot either.
 
You will find

that, contrary to your opinion, Open 60s and the like rely firmly on electric autopilots.

For additional informed opinion I would refer you to Forthmann's book on Windpilots also is of that opinion. (He makes the Pacific windvane)

It is possible you have been misled by the number of early round-the-world boats who fitted (mainly) St Aries.
 
Re: You will find

Both

Autopilot for coastal and windvane for long passages. My Hydrovane was superb downwind in the Atlantic surfing at 12 knots in 45kts of wind on a Westerly Corsair.
 
Very likely

On a run, a windpilot will hold a surfing boat.

The reason that most "authorities" do not recommend a windpilot for surfing conditions has to do with the effect of a sudden and considerable change in the apparent wind, when a boat surfs on a wave crest.

The result, if on a reach, is that the pilot tries to correct for the shift (of about 35 degrees) takes the boat off the wind and one describes a graceful parabola and arrives on a course about 65degrees off that which you've chosen.

It's happened to me on two occasions, the second caused me and the skipper of the Ile de Sein ferry to have brown trousers.
Since then I've considered discretion the better part of valour.

I take it the windspeed was actual and not apparent? What was the seastate?

I've put 11 nm into each hour over about 6 hrs in the Bristol Channel, in a boat about 20% of the weight in a seastate 8 and about 38 knots true, but not on the Navik.

I take it you've seen the light and transferred to a decent architect in the form of Bill Dixon!
 
Re: Very likely

Hmm, windspeed was probably the peak on the gizmo... force 6 gusting lol etc......
Yes, fully agreee Sir.. DONT let an older boat surf.. even the modern ones become uncontrollable very rapidly (Ask ! lol)

Surfin'with a vane is tantamount to lunacy... The wind reacts and changes direction Loooooooooooong before the swells...

Bil Dixon is less admired in my mind for the horrendous M45... looks like an ironing board inverted..

Otherwise.. cool.....

Ps..................

Heather Mills gets a PLANE as part of the settlement...

Beeeetch... /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif














But, for the other leg she still uses a razor....


/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
Re: Very likely

Just an observation re surfing with a wind vane on an 'older' boat - Stormy Weather (built in 1931, long keel, lean) surfed very happily down waves in mid atlantic with everything up (we hit 14 knots at times) with the Aries doing a wonderful job of helming, and never any tendency to broach.
 
Re: You will find

>that, contrary to your opinion, Open 60s and the like rely firmly on electric autopilots.

Of course they do now - autopilots can now steer to the wind (they couldn't in the early days), and most significantly they are they are lighter than windvanes. However note that they carry at least two and I believe lots of spares.

>It is possible you have been misled by the number of early round-the-world boats who fitted (mainly) St Aries.

Not at all misled. I'm not talking about the early circumnavigators who often did use Aries, I'm talking about the period between the early boys and the full out Open 60's. They used windvanes in surfing boats. If you don't believe it check it out.
 
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