autohelm - sailing by the wind.

Bosun Higgs

Bosun Higgs

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At the mo I cannot do that, and to do so would mean spending 1.5k on a new autohelm computer and bits to integrate with the Raymarine instruments. So the question is - is the ability to have the boat steer to the wind on autpilot a real handy thing to have or are you nearly as well off steering to a waypoint or compass bearing?

My boat is a reasonably well mannered 35 footer.
 
I've posted my view on this before, but I'll repeat it. I wouldn't, for one moment, think of spending that amount for this facility. I have Raymarine TP4000 connected via seatalk. The response is quite slow, it nowhere near follows wind shifts like a human. So, if you're close-hauled, it's necessary to sail maybe 10 deg off the wind, perhaps even more, otherwise you'll find yourself taken aback in shifty winds. Off the wind there is little or no benefit over steering to compass.
I've occasionally used it if there is, say a pronounced wind bend across a stretch of water such as sometimes happens when tacking up a loch, but that's hardly a big deal. Or, if you want to go to sleep!
 
I have a basic Tillerpilot and a Monitor windvane.

Under power I use the Tillerpilot. Under sail I use the Monitor. Under sail in very congested areas I steer by hand (or, better still, get the crew to steer)

The Monitor is incredibly sensitive and it doesn't get lose concentration, answer back or eat anything. It is also very expensive and spoils the look of a boat but I think it's worth having.
 
Diadem is an incredibly well mannered little boat. I've got a basic tillerpilot which i really only fit to keep the tiller in position close hauled.
When sailing single handed, I sail the boat directionally just using the main whilst leaving the tiller pilot set in position to keep the boat sailing forwards. It takes a lot less attention, setting up time and it doesn't require any input from the GPS or windex.

As said before, I keep the boat slightly more off the wind than normal so during headers, i can just grind in the Genoa and vice versa with lifts.
 
Bosun Higgs said:
At the mo I cannot do that, and to do so would mean spending 1.5k on a new autohelm computer and bits to integrate with the Raymarine instruments. So the question is - is the ability to have the boat steer to the wind on autpilot a real handy thing to have or are you nearly as well off steering to a waypoint or compass bearing?

My boat is a reasonably well mannered 35 footer.
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I have an ST4000 Wheelpilot coupled to Northstar Wind W315. It works sort of, and does not require 1500 quids worth of course computer. I agree that I would use it for maintaining course to fine reach but not beating. You need to set the damping to minimum on Wind, and not overload the NMEA circuit, as the signals cant get through as regularly as required. Hook it up to Inout 1 (fastest) on Raymarine Junction box if you have one.
 
Putting my latest giro driven raymarine pilot in wind mode is a waste of time. It reacts far too slowly unless you really are in extreme cruise mode with a gorgeous crewmate. We always have it in course mode and use the remote to tweek it to wind angle.
 
After speaking to a number of people, the Tiller Pilot works OK when the wind is fairly light, probably up to about force 3. Above that it doesn't react quick enough.

One guy I spoke to has a Monitor windvane. He recons that it works better in stronger winds - force 3-4 and above. But I agree with one comment in this thread, a windvane does spoil the look of a boat. Also, it gets in the way. Like many people, we have a stern ladder, and aerials cluttering up the stern. A windvane would be too much of a compromise.

For these reasons I built my own sheet to tiller system which works really well, particularly in stronger winds.

In lighter winds its OK down to about 6 knots when sailing close hauled, and about 8 knots when sailing with the wind on the quarter.


http://www.steersman.net
 
Just to add to others saying much the same, we had the wind control from our masthead ST50 to our ST6000 pilot and on an earlier boat the same arrangement to a ST4000 wheel pilot. In both cases the pilot reacts to wind changes to slowly and I believe it's software deliberately does this to make sure it really is a windshift not just a temporary blip. As a result the pilot doesn't follow the wind like a helmsman would and head up in gusts for example, so it isn't especially efficient. Worse though is the delay when the wind heads and it sits scratching it's head whilst the sail backs on the spreaders.

My preference, and we had pilot control heads at the nav table and at the wheel as well as a ST50 multi repeater at each place, was to set the pilot on a compass heading to hold to about 28degs apparent (digital fig from the multi for app wind angle) and then just play the +/- buttons as needed manually. If on deck alone we needed to leave it any length of time unsupervised then just added 5-10degs temporarily just in case for that time.
 
Bosun Higgs said:
At the mo I cannot do that, and to do so would mean spending 1.5k on a new autohelm computer and bits to integrate with the Raymarine instruments. So the question is - is the ability to have the boat steer to the wind on autpilot a real handy thing to have or are you nearly as well off steering to a waypoint or compass bearing?

My boat is a reasonably well mannered 35 footer.
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If you want anything that is at all likely to keep you on course then forget it!
Monitors, Haslar gear and the like are great for crossing oceans. In fact I wouldn't go blue water without one. They don't keep you on course though. They keep you at a constant wind angle. Morover this is an angle to the apparent wind not true wind which in gusty conditions will have you changing course constantly. Inshore or close to other vessels this is a PITA and if you don't watch out it's dangerous. Morover the poxy little vanes they fit on Raymarines swing about all over the place as the boat pitches and yaws. Totally and completely as much use as a one legged man at an arse kicking contest IMHO. Forget it!
 
Anyone tried the combination of a windvane and independent off course alarm then? Along with radar intrusion zone I am wondering if that would be sensible in, say, Channel waters at night?
Must say I have masthead to St6000 but haven't tried them together, yet.
 
I had this facility on my previous boat, but do not on my current one, so I have a view on the subject.

Assuming you have an autopilot that can steer a heading or follow a ground track then here is my view.

If you put an autopilot into wind mode, you know the boat will keep a constant angle to the wind, so unless wind strength changes, your boat will remain well trimmed. However, you will have to monitor the course over ground as you are not controlling this.

If you select heading mode you will both have to monitor sail trim and course over ground.

If you select waypoint mode and follow a defined course over ground you will have to monitor sail trim. but you can draw a line on the chart and know that you are in a safe place.

So, the answer to your question really is - it depends! If you are crossing an ocean wind mode is best as ground track is less important and you know the rig is properly trimmed. If you are motoring, motor-sailing or in confined waters you are probably best off in track mode. So, don't bother with wind-mode unless you are planning an ocean passage. If you are though, you are probably better off with wind-vane steering anyway.
 
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Are you guys asking too much of these systems?

You talk about them as if you should be able to just set your course and then go and read a book or something until you arrive at your destination.

You still need someone on deck as a look out.

The benefit as I see it is that you can sail short handed. Instead of having a helmsman and a lookout, the lookout can trim the sails and adjust the course single handed - no need for a helmsman. This means that sailing is less tiring for the crew and then if an emergency occurs, the crew is fresher, and more able to deal with it.
 
[QUOTE Are you guys asking too much of these systems?

You talk about them as if you should be able to just set your course and then go and read a book or something until you arrive at your destination.

You still need someone on deck as a look out.

The benefit as I see it is that you can sail short handed. Instead of having a helmsman and a lookout, the lookout can trim the sails and adjust the course single handed - no need for a helmsman. This means that sailing is less tiring for the crew and then if an emergency occurs, the crew is fresher, and more able to deal with it.[/QUOTE]

That's not really the question. Those points apply to autopilots irrespective of steering to either wind or compass.
 
Sailing by wind or compass

I have tried sailing by the wind with my Raymarine ST6000 but much prefer to sail by compass setting on a passage.
Wind direction changes during a passage, so if you are sailing from A to B you could end up at C if sailing by the wind.
 
Blueboatman said:
Anyone tried the combination of a windvane and independent off course alarm then? Along with radar intrusion zone I am wondering if that would be sensible in, say, Channel waters at night?
Must say I have masthead to St6000 but haven't tried them together, yet.
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Not nearly as sensible as looking around you and sailing the boat.
For cross channel you need to be on deck keeping a lookout, you might as well steer.
A normal compass driven autohelm is fine to steer for a few minutes when you need to leave the helm, if the wind is too shifty for this, steering to it will often be a bad idea anyway.
A vane gear has the huge advantage of not using power or making stupid whirring noises though!

The OP's money would be better spent on buying a human watchkeeper some beer!
 
Well there seems to be more of a consensus than normal with a technical question but I am a bit disapointed that the consesnsus is that wind steering electric autopilots arent much use.

I find steering the boat when on passage to be boring so I was hoping that a wind assisted autohelm would get round the problem that a compass steering one doesnt work hard on the wind since eventually you end luffing up. Seems from the anwers that a compass steer maybe 5 to 10 degrees off the wind is the answer - except that it isnt because 10 degrees off over a 50 mile day is a lot of miles downwind
 
Bosun Higgs said:
Well there seems to be more of a consensus than normal with a technical question but I am a bit disapointed that the consesnsus is that wind steering electric autopilots arent much use.

I find steering the boat when on passage to be boring so I was hoping that a wind assisted autohelm would get round the problem that a compass steering one doesnt work hard on the wind since eventually you end luffing up. Seems from the anwers that a compass steer maybe 5 to 10 degrees off the wind is the answer - except that it isnt because 10 degrees off over a 50 mile day is a lot of miles downwind
Click to expand...

Then the answer surely is to have an occasional look see at the course and the wind angle and adjust it accordingly. If you are only going to look every 50mls you might have more to worry about than being a bit downwind!
 
I have navman instruments and pilot. Close hauled, I can rely on the wind angle function to do a good job of steering the boat and can set the alarm so that it warns me if the wind direction changes by more than my choice of pre-set value.
Reaching or running, I tend to use compass mode, light airs or motoring, I use GPS mode.
The modern systems allow a level of customising the speed and amount of correction, and with my system you can use a range of pre set values or you can customise.

The more modern systems that use a gyro and a compass (Raymarine, B&G et al) can be tailored to the characteristics of the boat so I don't think the responses above are representative of the capability of modern pilot systems.
 
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