Auto Pilots - Self Steering?

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woody001

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Well, as some of you know I am thinking about taking some serious time away from the UK - I have had enough, for one or more personal reasons.
A while ago I raised a thread in regards to auto pilots - raymarine st4000, if you where crossing to spain, would you trust this? - it can steer to wind.
Or should i save up go for a wind self steering device, but which one? I noticed an article somewhere in the internet and alot of the arc yachts just had the st4000 and a st2000 backup.

What you think?
 
Autohelm 6000, direct onto quadrant is the one I know, used it on two boats for 000' of miles.

But carry a spare or spares and a way to make electric.
You hardly ever need to steer to a wind angle, just set it and trim sails to suite course most of the time. And wind angle doesn't change that quickly that you cant just add a few degrees with the button. I never used the sail to wind angle function in 20,000 miles.

Learn to set the boat up so it doesn't have to work to hard, our Bav would steer herself upwind, just clamp the friction on the steering balance the sails and she was off, so the autohelm didn't have to do too much.
 
I have a ST4000 + and it works just fine either on wind or bearing. One thing I DO have to keep an eye on is when I turn the engine on or off; for some reason the GPS quits having good interface with the autopilot, and I have to reset the waypoint and the autopilot.

regards
 
I have both - Windpilot windvane, and an Autohelm ST2000 (from 1996).

Each of them is nice in its own way. The Windpilot is obviously a lot more expensive. If I had to choose between them I'd definitely choose the Windpilot though, even taking account of the expense.

The reasons: first and foremost, the Autohelm is much more likely to break. Yes, I know that the argument goes that the latest models are becoming more reliable, but I don't buy that. Electrics go wrong. My Autohelm is really nice, but it's broken three times in the last three years.

On another boat, another electronic autpilot, we had to hand steer for the last week on the Pacific - although that autpilot didn't fail, we ran out of juice to recharge the batteries to run it, so it was as good as useless.

Obviously a windvane doesn't take any current = massive advantage.

Another plus of the windvane is that the stronger the wind, the stronger it becomes - a windvane will look after you just when you need it most, and an autopilot is most likely to fail when there's lots of water flying around and it's having to work hard.

One thing about the windvane is, you have to take care over trimming the sails, and may have to make adjustments to the vane from time to time as the wind strength increases/decreases.

The autopilot is really handy for those occasions when you are motoring for hours, or days, on end in a flat calm, when the windvane becomes useless. Then obviously the autopilots electric drain is not an issue. The autopilot also comes into its own if you're entering harbour when singlehanded - a windvane is no help in these circs while you get the sails down and fenders out.

In summary, it's best to have both, but if it's a choice between one or the other, the windvane wins hands down IMHO.
 
I'm sure with a backup they are perfectly safe and reliable, and if you have a fridge or watermaker, you'll need to run the engine each day anyway. However, I find the incessant whiring of an autohelm, increadible annoying. I have a servo wind vane with lines that go to the tiller (a Schwing) and there really is no comparion. It is silent, easy to maintain and uses no electricity. If you buy one second-hand it will be worth the same amount in ten years time and will give you years of reliable silent steering (you can buy full service kits for most models).
 
Thanks all for taking the time to write good clear advice.
I think i will try and lump it and go for both, i to like the idea of a windvane.
Iam finding it hard to find any uk prices for them, anyone know the cheapest place?
 
Hi Alex, I just had to answer as firstly our 6000 was almost silent, you had to strggle to hear it above the other boat noises, never really noticed it and it steered for nearly three weeks solidly.

We didn't have to run the engine at all as we had a towed generator and we ran the fridge all the time on full, used Nav lights, computer for weatherfax and lots of music. Wind gens wont supply the power you need but towed ones will.

Friends with wind vanes found that as they cant learn to anticipate downwind conditions when the aparent wind is less they were less than effective, but I agree that for most sailing conditions they are good and potentially more robust. I'd have had both if I had the budget and transom shape, but I liked the big swim platform!
 
hi,

Yes the 6000 looks like a good pilot, Iam a bit confused on the raymarine site of exactly what i would need to buy, could you help?
 
I'd endorse what others have said and add - If there is any chance of being singlehanded and caught out in bad weather, a windvane gear will be a lot more robust if the steering gear is working hard. If you have no-one else to helm while you take a break/reef/etc. The noise of the pushrod types is an irritation I find, don't know what the wheelpilots sound like (presume a 38 footer has a wheel?). Final point is that a windvane (mine is a Monitor) is a delight to watch at work. Windvane and autopilot are both valuable shipmates if you can afford both.
 
I have never seen one in action, but they do look cool, yes she has wheel, however, from speaking to tom (gps, raymarine guru, he reckons spend as much as possible)
I think i will try and go for st6000 and some form of windvane, whats the cheapest windvane which is pretty good?
God i love these forums, everyone seem's to know so much more than me, cheers guys!
 
About sailing downwind with a windvane: I'd agree that it's not at its best when broad reaching in light winds since the apparent wind angle changes only slightly for a large change in course.

One situation when I have found that the windvane is brilliant is for running dead downwind/goosewinged. Of course, in that situation there is no change in apparent wind angle as you accelerate/decelerate. Even when the wind is very light it works brilliantly, you can set it so that the vane is pointed dead aft, or sail slightly by the lee to keep the genoa full. In this situation, it is far more accurate than hand steering and obviously unlike the autopilot it will react to the tiniest wind shift immediately, and far less likely to gybe involuntarily than a helmsman even when he's concentrating hard.
 
It's a myth! As I say, on a broad reach especially in a light wind they don't steer a terribly straight course because puffs of wind change the apparent wind angle considerably. But if you set it up right then it will work beautifully on a run even in the very lightest of winds.

The trick in a very light wind (at least with the Windpilot), is to raise the wooden bit of the vane until it's at its balancing point so that the merest hint of a puff will deflect it one way or the other. This is in effect increasing its sensitivity so it can detect the subtlest of windshifts. It then works perfectly on a dead run. Mine only starts to falter downwind when boatspeed is below about half a knot.

I sometimes use it with the spinnaker up this way because it is less likely to collapse the spinnaker than I am!
 
HI Simon,

I'm afraid I disagree about windvane effectiveness downwind. I've done Atlantic crossiings with both the Hydrovane and Aries units and was very disappointed with both. The Aries, steering a Rival 41, was excellent to windward as you'd expect, and very good downwind in a full gale, but hopeless as we rolled down the Trades.

The Hydrovane was on a new Vancouver 34 and we had enormous difficulty getting it to steer a tight course in most conditions, and it was next to useless downwind. This was a major surprise to us, as the V34 tracks particularly well and was very light on the helm.

In both cases we reverted (for most of the time) to Autohelm autopilots. The 4000 on the V34 was superb and the current drain minimal. I can't remember the the pilot on the Rival, but suffice to say, we much preferred it, except in the lumpy conditions noted above.

On our own Pond circuits, we thought long and hard about getting (probably a Monitor) a windvane, but hesitated after the performances on the above triips. We have a well balanced boat that is very easily managed by an autopilot, so bought 3 ST2000's to supplement the 1984 vintage original 2000.

In the event, the 'oldie' did the bizz and, although we now use one of the 2000+'s, is still going strong. I therefore view the reliability of these models very highly, and would not consider a windvane now. Besides which, we could buy at least 5 AP's for the cost of one!!

We have a set-up almost the same as tigawave's, so a big surplus of power, making one of the main objections to AP's obselete. Interestingly, it seems to us that the number of yachts without vane steering is definitely increasing, presumably as their greatly improved reliability becomes more well known.

Cheers Jerry
 
Having both fitted..

I don't need to be terribly partisan.

As with everything else your choice depends on the area you're sailing, your boat type and the type of cruising you're doing.

For coastal work, the electric autopilot is superior, steers a more exact course and is far more economical of your effort and attention.

The canards about noise and consumption are pretty mythical - properly fitted and sized, and if the boat is set up for prevailing wind and sea conditions they can cope with anything thrown at them.

Though the price of an electric autopilot looks, at first sight to be lower than a vane gear, a properly robust one ends up at a not dissimilar price, especially when fitted to a wheel-steered yacht. I would only consider a direct quadrant-acting autopilot a practical piece of gear, the drum type being OK for occasional crew relief in good weather, but totally inadequate in heavy weather.

For long-distance oceanic work the servo windvane is a far more practical piece of gear, no electric consumption, its power increases with speed and wind, I wouldn't consider one though for use in the Med or any other area where you have to motor for long periods or on a boat which is quick enough to surf. (I found out the hard way by nearly ramming the Ile de Sein hydrofoil).

Oh! the boat is 9.5m long, my annual mileage is about 4000, nearly all of it single-handed, though I seldom make passages in excess of 4 days.
 
With difficulty - but it's possible if you can keep apparent wind at over 10 knots - I find I tend to either tack downwind (about 25 degrees is OK) or just go over to the electric pilot.

I would reckon an electric pilot a far more practical proposition for most people and would definitely plump for one if it were an either/or situation.

The greatest enemy of electric pilots is water ingress, and I'd not consider a keypad type as a seamanlike piece of gear.
 
I haven't tried the Aries or Hydrovane, only the Windpilot. Obviously with a windvane you have to tinker a lot to discover the best way to adjust it. I'm sure you did so. There are a lot of variables that may account for different performance, as one example, windvanes are very sensitive to any friction in the lines, especially in lighter winds, and there are a lot of different permutations in setting up the various nuts and bolts, also the various permutations of sailplan.

One thing about the Aries is that it has what to me seems very coarse adjustment - if I remember correctly, each click is 6 degrees? The ability to finetune to the nearest degree is I find critical so I don't think I could live with such a coarse adjustment.
 
The issue with noisy auto pilots only comes about when they are acting on the wheel or tiller as at this point they need more movement, if you take the movement back to a few inches from the rudder pivot, the forces are greater but the movement is less. Less wear more reliability. You really couldn't hear a 6000 in the Lazarette, which is only a thin sheet of ply above the aft berth. Water slopping in the tanks was louder.

The 6000 is over engineered for a 38-40 ft boat so copes easily, but you have to set the boat up so that it doesn't have too much to do.

I've also set boats to self steer just useing ropes and bungee on the tiller takes a bit of playing with but works, and as I said the Bav would self steer upwind by sail trimming for hours at a time.

Sweden 38 had the same arranegement which was very usefull when we broke part of the wire steering 2 days out of Canaries, and then the emergency tiller broke a few hours later, so the only (unless we jury rigged) steering was from the 6000. (we turned back which was hard work as anyone who knows the trades will appreciate it was January so they were blowing)
 
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