capnsensible
Well-known member
Speed doesn't need to be that important. I've trundled across the Atlantic four times on my moody 33 probably averaging just under five knots. It simply gave us more time to be happy. ?
Australian Golden Globe Race entrant - yacht lost
- Thread starter dunedin
- Start date
Bajansailor
Well-known member
Aye, speed is relative.
We crossed the Atlantic averaging 5 knots - I also later crossed on a Maxi averaging 12 knots. We took 10 days from Barbados to the Azores.
But that is still slow compared to an Airbus or 737, that can get from Barbados to London in 8 hours.
And that is slow compared to the Concorde, which used to do the same trip in 4 hours.
No time at all then for being happy like CapnSensible on his Moody!
geem
Well-known member
We had a generally light wind crossing last year West to East, Antigua to Azores at 6kt average. Happy with that. We crossed Biscay to Baiona this summer at 6.8kt average. Not racing but very happy with comfort and showers every day. Two up in an old boat?
roblpm
Well-known member
It also seems to be the case that many on here think a displacement / lwl ratio below 250 is a lightweight boat.
As a yardstick a Starlight 35 has a disp/lwl ratio of 266.
Then as an experiment I put into sailboat data a search of boats that have been designed since 2000 of 35-40(loa) feet with a displ/lwl ratio of under 250 and there are basically none very few
Well some Island Packets, Rustler 37, Mystery 35, couple of Najads, couple of Nauticats and a few others I haven't heard of.
So basically it is nigh on impossible to buy a boat in this size range that is less than say 15 years old that has an old style hull?
dunedin
Well-known member
As your ratio is displacement divided by WATERLINE length this is probably just a mathematical direct consequence of shorter overhangs and hence longer LWL, rather than boats getting materially lighter.
But this is not a metric I have ever really thought about when considering a boat.
doug748
Well-known member
As far as I can see, mainstream knockabout boats are tending to get porkier (in terms of displacement/length oa ) partly because they are getting bigger. To compensate, draughts are getting deeper and pointy bulbs more prevalent - both dodgy things for a pure cruising boat.
Some of the warmly received new cruiser/racers are expensive, complex and/or sport 7ft+ draught and rely on keeping light to plane and work fast. Great for a weekend with the lads but as family boats/ weekend retreats, with the Rib, doughnut, SUP, sun awning, fridge freezers, three showers, solar gantry, radar, 600 amp hour batteries, 100 gals of water and children, perhaps not so hot.
Personally I would not want a GGR type boat or a new Whatever 35 or a Pogo but see the attractions of each. I think most of these bunfights spring from not conceding that folk have different aspirations and use boats in different ways; in not seeing the other blokes point of view and not realising that he can't see yours.
Plus bloody mindedness as well, there's always that. ?
.
Some of the warmly received new cruiser/racers are expensive, complex and/or sport 7ft+ draught and rely on keeping light to plane and work fast. Great for a weekend with the lads but as family boats/ weekend retreats, with the Rib, doughnut, SUP, sun awning, fridge freezers, three showers, solar gantry, radar, 600 amp hour batteries, 100 gals of water and children, perhaps not so hot.
Personally I would not want a GGR type boat or a new Whatever 35 or a Pogo but see the attractions of each. I think most of these bunfights spring from not conceding that folk have different aspirations and use boats in different ways; in not seeing the other blokes point of view and not realising that he can't see yours.
Plus bloody mindedness as well, there's always that. ?
.
roblpm
Well-known member
I am reliably informed that this is the metric that affects the way the boat sits in the water. As archimedes or someone apparently reckons that the upwards force depends on the volume of water displaced. So a large internal volume makes the boat bob about more.
Anyway all I was pointing out the thread drift about the Najad 490 in the arc and its sailing characteristics is getting harder and harder to obtain. I don't particularly want to buy a 30 year old boat and nearly all the newer boats have flat bottoms and higher volume.
Sooner or later the mab awb debate will be gone unless you are super rich. Either to buy a newer quality boat or replace just about everything on a MAB. The rest of us mere mortals will be crossing oceans in awbs like 90% of the arc. I suppose the pogo is different.
roblpm
Well-known member
But what can you buy that is in between? Less and less I think. And older and older which increases the price of the refit. As I pointed out there is very little in the 35-40 foot range since 2000 (well launched since 2000).
geem
Well-known member
We opted for the Najad type hull and did the full refit. We have been improving the boat for the last nine years.
Every boat is a compromise but this is the perfect compromise for us?
Blueboatman
Well-known member
I think the perfect Caribbean boat is a J24 type
With a lifting keel, rudder
And coloured sails
Stripped out of course ?
just have fun, sleep in the cockpit, swim off the back, bbq fish
One battery, one masthead light, one phone gps, one 2.5hp outboard , one whole lotta time sailing and not doing maintenance in tropical places.
With a lifting keel, rudder
And coloured sails
Stripped out of course ?
just have fun, sleep in the cockpit, swim off the back, bbq fish
One battery, one masthead light, one phone gps, one 2.5hp outboard , one whole lotta time sailing and not doing maintenance in tropical places.
flaming
Well-known member
Absolutely as it should be.
flaming
Well-known member
I don't think this is true. In general there has been a trend away from bulbs on keels for a while now. Part of the point of beamy chined hulls is that they need less ballast as they make more use of form stability to stand up to their sail,
For sure light displacement boats benefit from being kept light, and that is a potential compromise on the amount of toys you can load in cruising trim. Not everyone wants or needs all of those things though.
There is this strange idea that some seem to have that because I, and others, like the idea of the Pogo etc, that we think that everyone should. This is obvious nonsense. They quite clearly will not suit everyone, and everyone I've ever seen on these boards is clear about the compromises that sailing a light boat entails. If it's not for you, then great. The negativity towards the type we see so often from some posters is just odd really.
roblpm
Well-known member
Is it actually a Najad? Centre cockpit? Where do you sail?
The other issue that I see is that a lot of these boats are made for sailing in Scotland and Scandanavia. Centre cockpit. No swim platform etc.
Now my plan is to sail in Scotland initially. But then sail to Med and Caribbean. All my reading suggests at that point the cockpit, bimini etc are more important than the interior space.
Aft cockpit, swim platform, medium displacement anyone?! I can't see much..........
flaming
Well-known member
Very true. And I think that it tells a story.
To a large extent the price of a boat correlates to 2 things, the displacement and the (inverse of) the production run. So the heavier the boat is for a given length the more expensive it will be, simply because it's used a lot more materials, and this forces the manufacturer to make it a "premium" brand as nobody is going to pay more for a boat of a given size only for it to be merely averagely put together, which in turn boosts the price further, limiting the market, which then still further boosts the price.
This equation can work in the larger sizes, as by the time you're talking about a boat costing over £500k you're not talking about people who are scrimping to buy it and to an extent the premium price is a selling point.... But it doesn't really work in the smaller sizes, the pool of people prepared to pay 3 or 4 times the price of an AWB for a similar LOA "traditional" style boat in the 35-40 foot bracket is extremely small. Especially when you consider that for that extra money you are getting a boat with considerably less accommodation space, so it is really appealing to a very specific type of buyer who is not concerned with keeping "less enthusiastic" sailors happy on board. And for there to be boats of that type available somebody has to be making money out of building them... Which has proven to be extremely difficult.
Currently, the equation is different for the builders of light cruisers. They use less materials (though this can be offset if the materials are more exotic) so for their length they are not orders of magnitude more expensive than the AWB brigade. Coupled with having decent accommodation has made them very popular. Hence the 2 year waiting list.
For example Pogo 36 circa £140k
Bavaria C38 circa £143 k
Halberg Rassey 372 circa £229k
(All figures from the YW or YM tests online)
Tranona
Well-known member
Using base prices is very distorting as the differential widens when you spec boats up to a similar level of gear. The 60% or so premium for the HR over the Bavaria will widen when you run down the extras list. Although the base spec of the HR may well be higher, it is the "extras" that really bump the price up. I found this when I bought my Bav. The HR 310 was on the list as the premium on base prices was not huge - around 30% from memory, but the extras, which were often similar kit were typically double what Bavaria charged. Good example would be the bow thruster - same model but double the price fitted. I did a similar exercise a few years earlier comparing a Bav 34 with a Southerly 32 with similar outcomes.
There are clearly differences between production boats and premium ones, but less to do with weight of materials (my Bav 33 is actually heavier than an HR 310), but much of the difference is intangible so difficult to value.
There are clearly differences between production boats and premium ones, but less to do with weight of materials (my Bav 33 is actually heavier than an HR 310), but much of the difference is intangible so difficult to value.
flaming
Well-known member
To be honest the HR isn't really representative of the heavy type these days, it's just a bit representative of the smaller production run.
Though by the same measure, that Bavaria 38 at 9 Tonnes is getting towards medium/heavy in my books....
Tranona
Well-known member
You are right. HR have moved from where they were to more of premium AWB. If you superimpose their latest 34 onto a Bav 34 it would be hard to tell the difference. Even more striking as you go up their range with twin rudders, flat bottoms and wide sterns etc. They must have made a huge investment in CNCs to do the interiors and still make them look special. Recent AWBs are heavy for their length because of the lack of overhangs, beams carried aft and the amount of gear that comes as standard (5 95AH batteries for example in my boat!).
It is clear from this thread that the old benchmarks for design analysis are less and less relevant and comparing boats across design eras less valid.
It is clear from this thread that the old benchmarks for design analysis are less and less relevant and comparing boats across design eras less valid.
geem
Well-known member
We have a Trintella 44. Same basic idea as the Najad. Centre cockpit, lead keel, skeg hung rudder, no sugar scoop but never seen it as a disadvantage. When it's bumpy in an anchorage it's far easy to get off the dinghy with a boarding ladder. Caribbean anchorages are often windy with a chop.
Cockpit will seat 8 in comfort.
Creating lots of shade is a priority on any boat in the Caribbean
roblpm
Well-known member
Looks great. Where are you based now?
Just one problem for me personally. There are 3 on yachtmarket. 1979-1981. I just don't have the desire to bring a boat like that up to date. My Father built an Eventide. He liked fiddling with boats more than sailing. I like sailing more than fiddling with boats.
geem
Well-known member
Haha, yes. I suspect I wouldn't do this much work again. I don't blame you for wanting to go sailing. Our circumstances were a little different when we bought the boat. We used to sail in the UK with a plan to head off so bought the boat with that in mind. We kept her seaworthy so we could use her in the summer then we would do all the big projects in the winter. It worked for us but to be honest I could have done with another winter before we left for the Caribbean. We still had stuff to do.
She is a great boat that looks after us. We have confidence that she can take the rough stuff but is still very comfortable and spacious when at anchor. I think the older HR, Malo Najad inspire similar confidence.
Good luck with your search
