atalntic crossing 2012 -2013

KellysEye said:
> although it might seem otherwise, there is no tangible “security” in going with the arc, nor with an “email net”. Not really. If you really needed help, you’d need a big ship or an emergency surgeon right this minute, or a helicopter (cept their range is 300miles, ish) and so on.

I disagree. Many ARC boats have helped other ARC boats including taking crews off. You only really need a ship for a medical emergency where a cruise ship is best because of it's medical facilities.

Also many non ARC boats leave at the same time as the ARC for the security. ARC boats always help others boats and have also taken non ARC crews off.

The daily net is probably the best bit of the ARC after the parties, if anyone has problems there are always other boats to help.
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Hm yeah, i thought you wd disagree. Hiya KE.

Yes, ok, some people have taken others off boats. But not “many”. No crews taking crews off other boats recently? It’s very rare. In fact not heard of it in last few years at all.

Last one I heard was ScillyPete of this parish, boat flooded after dismasting, boat lost, crew taken aboard by ARC boat in 2007 when you were muggin er oops I mean, when you were Official ARC Finish Line Boat in 2007? None taken aboard another boat since then that i can think of? I mean it’s not the common occurrence at all which your text made it appear - it’s very rare.

And there’s other boats out there - it’s not the case that all others with a problem in any other sea or in the same sea at another time of the year would die all alone cos aw, there’s no ARC fleet? The arc is 10-20% of small transat boats, not all of them. There’s other ships and boats. ScillyPete had a liferaft.

But yes of course - arc boats help each other - all boats help each other- in port at the start, mainly.

Ships (not arc boats) were called to serious problems in last couple of years such as one who lost rig and another another year who lost rudder - these were around las palmas first few days.

ARC net - hmmm - several net controllers i spoke to sed they gave up with radio nets after first day cos fleet so spread out. Fewer these days with oldie technology SSB it seems.
I suppose it’s going to quite minor help really on the ssb radio nets. And especially so if - as you say - the parties are actually better than the ssb nets?

I have asked for ( and had) advice whilst on a xing - but from others: once you have email you can send msgs say to others for super-expert knowledge, rather than just some random person on another boat who also has no internet etc. The arc organisers check their email each working day in Cowes - it’s not 24hr special support with support boats milling about or anything.

I know the arc organisers circulate queries such as asking if anyone has a spare pressure sensor for a non-functioning generator whilst en route, frinstance. Hm. Not really an emergency, though, or not one for which one would want to divert a hundred miles or more just so someone can have a comfier second week.

I like your comment “ARC boats always help non arc boats” haha. As though some boats WOULDN’T help in a real emergency?

ARC or otherwise, you are on your own and should prepare accordingly.

If one really wanted to maximise potential support from the ARC fleet en route - the best policy is prolly to not actually join the ARC - and set off a week in advance. Because of course, within the arc fleet, the boat that comes to your aid is likely to be from behind - slower and smaller. Within the ARC fleet itself, those best able to help others charge off as fast as possible, and those smallest boats, potentially in most need of support and for whom the notion of the rally was presumably originated... are further back. Heyho. Actually that’s not true - the smallest transat boats... aren’t allowed to join the ARC at all! Minimum 30 feet innit...
 
Yeah, ARC safety net, well idea is a bit pants really. No other boat is in sight after what, about 8 seconds after the start. 2 hours later, VHF gone. Then there is; oh yeah, cruiser net on SSB thingy.

So you are 200 miles (or 2 days) from the nearest ARC boat, so that will help.... or not.

Help, help, Awright, just dont bleed too much for, er , well....

Thing is, either take responsibility for yourself, or if you are really worried (not a bad thing at all) get an Iridium phone and put a) Falmouth Coastguard b) your loved one and c) someone you owe loadsa money to on speeddial.

I reckon the ARC is brill because thousands of people who otherwise could not do a Transat have had the chance. But Many Thousands have done it anyway.

I done 10, hee hee. (Not ARC)

Bold, Ambitious, Disciplined :)
 
What worries me is the impression that is gained from pro ARC comments here by those that don't have the experience to really appreciate or understand the risks. The bar talk of "we're going with the ARC" always makes it sound like a cosy outing of a group of mates, in reality you party with the ARC and you start with the ARC but you sail on your own.
 
>SSB... So you are 200 miles (or 2 days) from the nearest ARC boat, so that will help.... or not.

The SSB 4MhZ frequency used by the ARC net has a 600 mile radius range. The chance of not reaching at least a dozen boats is nil. We were net controllers and more more than that number called in every day.
 
KellysEye said:
>SSB... So you are 200 miles (or 2 days) from the nearest ARC boat, so that will help.... or not.

The SSB 4MhZ frequency used by the ARC net has a 600 mile radius range. The chance of not reaching at least a dozen boats is nil. We were net controllers and more more than that number called in every day.
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How does that equate with being near enough to do anything about a problem?? Thats my point.

A look at the ARC tracker every year reveals that boats are, unless you get rextra lucky, too far apart for any real aid. Not only that, what can the average cruiser do about it?

False security, I am afraid.
 
It is false security, but people still like it, it seems...

There is a huge proportion of people who are just on a massive freakout about how completely alone they are in the middle of the ocean. This includes lots of sailors/skippers who do an ocean crossing for the first time. For them, actually talking to another boat on ssb/vhf really cheers them up.

In the same way, paying the ARC people for a “ticket to ride” also cheers them up. They bang on about the safety in numbers. But as the captain sez - what exactly can anyone else out of sight of the boat do about an emergency right now? Not much except chat about it on the radio. If you had a problem in coastal waters would you say “not to worry - there’s another boat just 34miles away!” - i doubt it.

So the radio nets are a source of comfort, and a facility for chatting about fishing. KE understands and appreciates this source of comfort, whereas others quite enjoy turning things off so nobody can bother us. I actually even get annoyed by the friggin dolphins these days, interrupting things with their me me ooh come and look at us swim at the bow of the bow, pesky blimmin sea-rats. Er, ahem, sorry...
 
thanks

despite differing opinions that's all great cheers guys
will look out for Hercules sailing while here
and the arc is immaterial we are too late to join
anyway. we are leaving around the same time
I reckon to maximise time in Carib but thanks
for a other advice also.
 
The ARC publicity machine does a great job of making people scared and they need to be on the ARC as so safe and nobody ever gets into trouble. **** really as people have been crossing the Atlantic for 100's of years before the ARC started and will do for 100's of years after it finishes.

Its a very expensive way of crossing , and your really better off on your own. in reality everybody will try to help if you are in serious trouble. But if they 100+ miles ahead of you it's going to take them a long time to get back against the wind and current.

Be a NARC, think for yourself, shop in the shops you want to (not the ones they suggest!), leave when YOU think it is the right time to go and make YOUR OWN decisions.

The most important thing is to relax and enjoy the crossing - it's worth it.
 
Yeah, tho regarding making people scared... how do you feel they did this?

If they say oh yeah it’s all fine no prob AT ALL.... well that’s not sensible. And yet if they list every single thing that could go wrong... well that’s bit much too?

The ARC v NARC (Not ARC) thing is separate? It seems to be Narcies that get annoyed most by this - partly cos the NARCies find stuff themselves and the ARCies get it all spoonfed. Hum, wel, a bit i spose. Or worse, that Arcies are all horrid to Narices. My view is that only a few Arcies are even aware that NARCies exist - only a few are irritatied by them and i have met precious few like that - one ARC guy in a 29foot Sadler got beaten by three days by a NARC in a 25ft Sadler haha - the guy in the 29fter was not pleased and harumphed that the narcs shdn’t have been on the startline. But there is nothing at all stopping anyboat from making a start at or around the same time on that sunday, probly at the far end of the startline best idea...
 
>How does that equate with being near enough to do anything about a problem?? Thats my point. A look at the ARC tracker every year reveals that boats are, unless you get rextra lucky, too far apart for any real aid. Not only that, what can the average cruiser do about it? False security, I am afraid.

It's not false security the net works very well. To give more detail there are three sets of net controllers one for the racing boats, one for the medium speed boats and one for the slower boats all on the same frequency at different times. There is usually some overlap between the three so you can find out who is the closest boat if you need help. The three nets spanned a rolling 1,800 miles so when the boats are shown a long way apart it isn't a problem.

I'm not sure what you mean about an average cruiser. The qualifying requirements are the skipper and at least one crew must have sailed from the UK to the Canaries. There are also strict requirements for safety kit to RORC standard, and the skipper and one other must have sea survival and medical certificates. If you want sextant training they do that in the Canaries.
 
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OK I may not have explained.

I have already said I think the ARC is good because its enabled loadsa people to sail an Ocean that would not otherwise have had the chance.

I re state the point that the false security feeling is that there is a 999 type service, when there clearly isnt. You can tell anyone on the ARC net you have an emergency but there is very little any ARC yacht can do about it unless you are 2 miles from the Yacht that is skippered by a brain surgeon and his engineer brother who has the workshop on board. The (few) Arc rescues have mostly been from non ARC resourses.

All you do is put an extra layer in where speedial Falmouth Coastguard on Iridium is far more effective.

I have had this safety net (Iridium) on 4 transats, but not on the other 6. Either way, I am always ready to act on my own resourses. And as boats are boats, there has always been something that breaks!

I am also very aware of safety equipment, can do first aid, done sea survival and can use a sextant! Also got a SW radio receiver for football results.....

I do wish the ARC continued success. A good friend of ours has been part of the organisation at departure and arrival points several times, plus chatting to tcm about his experiences is always, enlightening... No problem with all that. It just needs perspective.

Happy sailing

CS
 
I just dont get the whole ARC vs NARC thing. People cross the atlantic to get to the caribbean in time for christmas, and after the hurricane season. The Arc doesn't have a monopoly on this, the only thing they have a monopoly on is marina berths in Las Palmas, and there are literally hundreds of other places you can start that journey from.

Any boat that is within reach of another boat that is in trouble will go to their aid. As long as you have an epirb and/or sat-phone then all the boats in the vicinity (that are capable of receiving communications) will be informed, and any that are close by will respond.
 
Hum, still nothing about the actual TANGIBLE safety given by arc/radio nets etc. KE likes the comfort of hearing others nearby, i think?

Here’s another angle on “mutual help” thing: The non-democatic arrangement of skipper + crew is there for a reason and it is NOT to prop up little napoleons but so that it’s very clear - this skipper is responsible for these people, in this boat. That other skipper is responsible for those other people, in that other boat.

The super-capabale skippers are’t responsible for giving extra helpiness towards the ooer slightly-over-reachd themselves types in other boats who only-just passed the arc inspection by ahem borrowing gear from other boats, ahem.

You see this in action in the alps: on higher routes, it is required that everyone has an alpine guide. If one person appraoching you (tied to their guide) slips a bit - then your own guide (tied to you) drops to ground and digs in with ice axe. In other words he first acts to safeguard his own - YOU - not to rush off to help others a bit at the first hint of trouble.

This is what should more skippers should be doing in oceans. Looking after their boat, their crew. I may see some lights off over on the beam (in biscay, once) in the distance but i won’t go over and see what it’s about unless they call on ch 16. Might e fishing boats, nets, anything. Who knows? Who needs to know? Not me.

If I was crew, I wouldn’t want the skipper poncing about worrying bout other boats without being specifically requested to do so. Running radio nets and all that isn’t at all his duty as skipper, esp if this is his first transat. I’d want him to focus on looking after this crew, and this boat. Brutal, but that’s how it is.

Yet lots of arc skippers don’t do this. They set off as though it’s a sort of group outing. Once, an arc boat saw some lights sorta flashing when they were a day or so out of the canaries and went to “have a look’ - and suddenly it’s a bunch of refugees who lured them over. Now the refugees are tranna get on this boat and extra risk. But if they had concentrated on being skipper -looking after this boat and letting others look after THEIR boat - that wouldn’t have happened.

So if you know what you’re doing, the odds are (massive) that the rest of the fleet is just gonna be a potential liability. As othr said, they are there for the parties before and after - during the arc, you are on your own.

On the other hand, if you’re are absolutely scared stiff most of the time, running a radio net and or chatting on radio net will at least give you something to occupy your mind. But unless that othr boat has mega medical and engineering ability... wel, what exactly they gonna do?
 
bit of what you fancy does you good....

Hi,

Some like a rally, some don't.

For me this is the key point. I absolutely agree that a perceived increase in safety offered by the ARC is just that. If you are in trouble, all boats would respond and do their best for you if it was safe to do so - ARC or not. It remains your responsibility to make adequate preparations for your crossing - ARC or not. But do you like a rally - socialising, feeling of operating as a group, etc.? If so, then maybe its for you.

I've done an ocean crossing (my first) with one and found it useful because of the land support and the fact it fixed the crossing and made it harder to 'wait just another year to start the trip....'. Since then I have been happier going independently for lots of reasons but that's just me.

Make sure your rig will stay up, your keel and rudder will stay on and just go with or without the ARC - which ever you fancy.
 
Conachair said:
How many arc boats have ssb these days? Or is sat phone getting more popular?
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None of the ARC boats I met last year had SSB Transceivers (admittedly that was only about 5 or 6 boats, and they were all big, well crewed, affairs).

I thought about getting one, but even though I could have gotten the unit for free, the set-up of turning the backstay into an ariel and adding ground plates was too daunting. £35 for a Degen seemed a much better option :) ...and after you talked me into getting a windvane I cant afford to buy anything else ;P
 
>KE likes the comfort of hearing others nearby, i think?

When we left the Canaries we lost sight of any ARC boats by the followng morning. We saw one fishing boat west off the Canaries, one ship and one yachrt heading north about 50 miles from St Lucia. We didn't see another ARC boat until we reached Rodney Bay marina. Of course we talked to many other boats on the SSB because we were net controllers, nothing to do with comfort.
 
KellysEye said:
>KE likes the comfort of hearing others nearby, i think?

When we left the Canaries we lost sight of any ARC boats by the followng morning. We saw one fishing boat west off the Canaries, one ship and one yachrt heading north about 50 miles from St Lucia. We didn't see another ARC boat until we reached Rodney Bay marina. Of course we talked to many other boats on the SSB because we were net controllers, nothing to do with comfort.
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So you would have been no use to anyone in disress then......:rolleyes:
 
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