Asymmetric setup

[Triassic]

You raise a point there which i tend to disagree with many & at the risk of a thread drift i will raise it.
I always put stopper knots in my ropes.

I don't think it is a thread drift as it is relevant to an asymmetric spinnaker set up. I'd be inclined to agree with your principal with the exception of this example, for the very reasons that I explained. If you have to stop the boat in a hurry, and a MOB is one of them, then the easiest way is to immediately round up into the wind. With every sail plan except a spinnaker this is both practicable and recommended. If you try and do it with the spinnaker still up you will either place the boat in danger, or at the very least completely out of control. You certainly won't have a chance of going back upwind to recover your casualty, and if you've ever tried to drop a spinnaker that it pinned into your mast and rigging you'll know that that is no easy feat either..... In the perfect world it would be lovely to bear away, set the auto pilot to hold her on course (we race two handed remember, if one of us is MOB the other is on their own) and then go forward and drop the spinnaker in the normal way. Conservatively I reckon that would take two or three minutes, and that's assuming the pilot is already in place, so that's going to leave us over half a mile from the casualty, not the two boat lengths I'll be if I simply lift the two clutches holding the tack and halyard....... Yes, it's a bugger having to re-sheeve the halyard but we drop the mast at the end of play anyhow so it's not that big a deal!

 

[Daydream believer]

Normally I would be single handed but with 2 up we would be clipped on. It is also a reason that I do not have a snuffer, to keep the crew, if short handed, in the cockpit
I would also be aware of the problem of getting the spinnaker back on board. That is awkward single handed whilst trying to control the boat. Plus I would not want to run over it with the engine running. So once again I would disagree & not use that tactic.
However, to each his own & if it suits you then by all means use it.

 

[Triassic]

So once again I would disagree & not use that tactic.
However, to each his own & if it suits you then by all means use it.

Indeed, to each their own, one of the few freedoms we still enjoy in sailing.

Out of interest what is your plan for stopping the boat in a hurry when under spinnaker? I appreciate any crew you have are clipped on, and that the speeds, and therefore distance covered may be less in your boat, but you still need to stop to recover someone from the water.

 

[Daydream believer]

Indeed, to each their own, one of the few freedoms we still enjoy in sailing.

Out of interest what is your plan for stopping the boat in a hurry when under spinnaker? I appreciate any crew you have are clipped on, and that the speeds, and therefore distance covered may be less in your boat, but you still need to stop to recover someone from the water.

Mark the casualty with the dan buoy. Drop the sail into the main cabin hatch. If separated go back . If alongside, I have a dedicated halyard rigged ready at all times --- that may be featured in July's PBO if the editor so decides.
I am quite aware that at 8kts I would be covering 250 metres per minute but that is something that one has to deal with. Hence, stay clipped on.

 

[Triassic]

May I ask if you have actually tried to drop your spinnaker on your own in say, 15 knots of wind and roughly how long did it take? I would respectfully suggest that it's going to take two or three minutes to bear away, set the helm, and then bring the spinnaker in under the boom into the cockpit. That's an awful long time not to have eyes on your MOB, or for them to be dragging alongside the boat......

I don't want to derail this thread to much but the safety aspects around using spinnakers are in my view part of the set-up considerations and planning what to do in an emergency (I do appreciate not everybody wants to actually practice ditching their spinnaker) avoids the need to "deal with" the situation should it arise. Once the spinnaker is down in the water the boat will stop, and the sail will be streamed out the back attached by whichever line you didn't dump, which should be the sheet. You can then either pull it back on board which is dead easy as long as you don't mind a soggy mess in the cockpit, or in a real emergency dump the sheet and abandon the lot. My spinnaker costs around £2k to replace, I know crew are plentiful but good ones are hard to find and I value mine at a little over that....

 

[lw395]

OTOH, a sail in the water alongside the boat is fairly likely a sail around the prop.

 

[Daydream believer]

May I ask if you have actually tried to drop your spinnaker on your own in say, 15 knots of wind and roughly how long did it take? I would respectfully suggest that it's going to take two or three minutes to bear away, set the helm, and then bring the spinnaker in under the boom into the cockpit. That's an awful long time not to have eyes on your MOB, or for them to be dragging alongside the boat......

I don't want to derail this thread to much but the safety aspects around using spinnakers are in my view part of the set-up considerations and planning what to do in an emergency (I do appreciate not everybody wants to actually practice ditching their spinnaker) avoids the need to "deal with" the situation should it arise. Once the spinnaker is down in the water the boat will stop, and the sail will be streamed out the back attached by whichever line you didn't dump, which should be the sheet. You can then either pull it back on board which is dead easy as long as you don't mind a soggy mess in the cockpit, or in a real emergency dump the sheet and abandon the lot. My spinnaker costs around £2k to replace, I know crew are plentiful but good ones are hard to find and I value mine at a little over that....

To reply i will quote my experience:-
Last year we were reaching up the Wallet ( East Coast)in 15kts & doing 8kts over the ground. We ran aground on a spit near the Gunfleet old light house on a falling tide at an angle of 30 degrees.
The two of us had the asymetric down in about 30-40 seconds which is really fast from a standing start without warning. We were really shocked & frightened we would not get off so had reason not to hang about. So the situation, in a way, was similar. We just let the tack off, (it is very long) released the halyard & shoved the sail down the hatch. It did not even get wet.The boat did round up but fortunately not too quick.. It was just lucky that the crew (an experienced sailor)was in the right position as it happened & knew precisely what to do
Within 2-3 minutes we had the engine started.Fortunately we bounced over the spit pushed by the tide & engine & off the other side.
A boat standing by commented on how quick it all happened.

At 8 knts we would have traveled 250 yards but on my own it would have taken 4 minutes bearing in mind that one has to drop the dan buoy & stop the boat rounding up whilst I leave the helm. But i would not have travelled at 8 kts all the time so would have gone about 5-600 yds. With no one on the helm it would have rounded up & possibly tacked anyway.
It does not take long to get back that distance & bear in mind one has to sort other sails & hoisting & recovery gear as well, not just sort mainsail & asymetric.

It does , however, make one think. I generally make sure that everyone is clipped on if using the asymetric. I avoid going on the foredeck as much as possible. Hence no snuffer. In the situation we were in, going forward on a boat laid over & trying to snuff the sail would have been a pretty dodgy affair & taken too long.

But the original point was about stopper knots in sheets etc. It does not take long to release a figure of 8 & if it was necessary to do it then, yes, go ahead. My point was, that having done so, it makes that sheet unusable & one has to take that into account. Sheets & other ropes should be long enough for general use in the first place

 

[Triassic]

But the original point was about stopper knots in sheets etc. It does not take long to release a figure of 8 & if it was necessary to do it then, yes, go ahead. My point was, that having done so, it makes that sheet unusable & one has to take that into account. Sheets & other ropes should be long enough for general use in the first place

Hopefully this exchange isn't being seen as an argument, rather an exchange of views around how one might prepare for a potential emergency so one isn't relying on "experienced crew" to get you out of a potentially dangerous situation. I guess our differences are around our priorities, mine is to stop the boat immediately so to remain as close to the MOB as possible, yours on a multiple of other factors such as deploying dan boys, boats staying on course, sails coming down cleanly, and engines starting....... Having people clipped on is always good policy, but remember someone being dragged alongside your boat at eight knots isn't going to last very long...... Incidentally not having a stopper knot in the end of a rope has nothing to do with how long it is, is is wether or not you want to lose the end. I clearly do.

Oh, and to save me typing another post LW395, a spinnaker in the water streams straight out the back of the boat on the surface initially, and ends up off towards the beam by the time you stop, it's nowhere near your propeller. You then make the decision to either ditch it or recover it before starting the engine.

 

[Daydream believer]

Hopefully this exchange isn't being seen as an argument,

Well as far as I am concerned it is not. It is an exchange of views.
I had never thought of doing this & perhaps it opens up an option.It would not be my first mode of operandi .Others may file it away in the memory bank as well

 

[PhillM]

Well as far as I am concerned it is not. It is an exchange of views.
I had never thought of doing this & perhaps it opens up an option.It would not be my first mode of operandi .Others may file it away in the memory bank as well

Good exchange of views. As a novice Asy or Spin user it is making me think about what if's. Please continue.

 

[RupertW]

Good exchange of views. As a novice Asy or Spin user it is making me think about what if's. Please continue.

As a bit of an alternative viewpoint, the chances of people actually going overboard are very very low so we hear a lot about the few occasions they happen. And even then it's usually racing rather than cruising, so the chances for an average cruising boat must be so low that we can't really differentiate between the avoidance tactics that work and those that just make us feel better.

So for me, the foredeck is a key sunbathing area and as being clipped on requires a harness then it would give bad tan lines so for us or our non-sailing guests so is a non-starter, especially in the calmish conditions when I fly the asym. The foredeck in those conditions is a nice stable platform and a snuffer with the endless snuffing line led down the mast to a cleat makes short work of getting the sail snuffed very quickly if things get difficult - usually without disturbing the sunbathers too much.

The precautions I take in rougher conditions are very different but at 0-12 knots and a calmish sea (or the sail would repeatedly collapse) then sailing should be colourful and fun. The moment it even feels slightly hairy then I remember I am cruiser not a racer and want to keep everybody relaxed, so down it comes.

 

[PhillM]

That's really interesting. My main potential use of a downwind sail is for classic cruiser racing. We simply cannot keep up with the larger boats, who all fly one, in up to 15-20 kn. Upwind we seem able to hold our own, but to have any chance of even finishing the course, we need to be able to keep up on the downwind legs. I expect to be 2 up on a 24 footer, with no guard rails (although we can and do clip on).

 

[RupertW]

That's really interesting. My main potential use of a downwind sail is for classic cruiser racing. We simply cannot keep up with the larger boats, who all fly one, in up to 15-20 kn. Upwind we seem able to hold our own, but to have any chance of even finishing the course, we need to be able to keep up on the downwind legs. I expect to be 2 up on a 24 footer, with no guard rails (although we can and do clip on).

Sailing is great fun I think because every day and every boat is different. For us the main reasons for the big downwind sail are to add colour so people can take memorable selfies and to have the rather silly satisfaction of being the only boat sailing when all the other AWBs are motoring. I hope also to use it on our cross Atlantic in the next couple of years but am on the lookout for a slightly heavier and more stable free flying sail to boom out - probably a very second hand cheap old genoa ( but haven't yet worked out how I'd safely bring that sail down when the wind gets up enough to rely on just the roller reefeed 105% )

 

[Triassic]

As a bit of an alternative viewpoint, the chances of people actually going overboard are very very low so we hear a lot about the few occasions they happen. And even then it's usually racing rather than cruising, so the chances for an average cruising boat must be so low that we can't really differentiate between the avoidance tactics that work and those that just make us feel better.

The problem with statistics is they can always be interpreted in various ways, reminds me of that other thread where it was noted that servicing your own life raft was clearly OK because nobody who had done so had ever complained about it not working when needed...... I suspect there are far more MOB situations than reported because in the vast majority of them the casualty is successfully recovered so the incident isn't newsworthy. I would also venture to suggest that the chances of losing somebody over the side are potentially higher when not racing as that is when people tend to be a bit more complacent about what they are doing.

I've lost two people over the side in the last four years. One was half deliberate (on his part anyhow) because his hat blew off and he had so much confidence in me picking him up he simply jumped straight off after it (No, we didn't have the spinnaker up at the time!),
the other time was actually between races when the crew fell foul of the classic situation whist leaning over the side only holding on with one hand......

Getting back on topic I think whatever system you use to get your spinnaker down in a hurry will depend on your type of boat and personal preferences, the important bit is that you have considered the need to do so beforehand and have a plan in place which the rest of the crew are aware of and ideally practiced, after all, it might be you that needs picking up!

 

[RupertW]

The problem with statistics is they can always be interpreted in various ways, reminds me of that other thread where it was noted that servicing your own life raft was clearly OK because nobody who had done so had ever complained about it not working when needed...... I suspect there are far more MOB situations than reported because in the vast majority of them the casualty is successfully recovered so the incident isn't newsworthy. I would also venture to suggest that the chances of losing somebody over the side are potentially higher when not racing as that is when people tend to be a bit more complacent about what they are doing.

I've lost two people over the side in the last four years. One was half deliberate (on his part anyhow) because his hat blew off and he had so much confidence in me picking him up he simply jumped straight off after it (No, we didn't have the spinnaker up at the time!),
the other time was actually between races when the crew fell foul of the classic situation whist leaning over the side only holding on with one hand......

Getting back on topic I think whatever system you use to get your spinnaker down in a hurry will depend on your type of boat and personal preferences, the important bit is that you have considered the need to do so beforehand and have a plan in place which the rest of the crew are aware of and ideally practiced, after all, it might be you that needs picking up!

Racing crews like yours are different animals entirely to cruising crews (and totally inexperienced passengers). I do get exactly what you say about training the crew to get a spinnaker down if I go overboard but alas I've long realised that it's not going to happen. I've been sailing with my now wife since the 1980s and done many thousands of miles with her including a couple of rough Biscay crossings but she has no more interest now in learning how to hoist, reef or drop any sail than she ever did. I could never do a sport that meant my life relied entirely on the one other person being fit and available but that's her wish and I know it won't change now. Nor would she ever take part in a man overboard drill on the boat so if I ever do go over I will be waving goodbye while she contemplates learning about how to stop a boat that is sailing along, but heyho.

 

[lw395]

....

Oh, and to save me typing another post LW395, a spinnaker in the water streams straight out the back of the boat on the surface initially, and ends up off towards the beam by the time you stop, it's nowhere near your propeller. You then make the decision to either ditch it or recover it before starting the engine.

I've seen one wrapped around the rudder.
Perhaps it's useful to suggest it's a good idea that it's easy to release the tack of an asy, e.g. by leading the tack line back to the cockpit. Then the kite can be retrieved by the sheet or simply allowed to be a big flag as the boat heads up to stop?

 

[Daydream believer]

I've seen one wrapped around the rudder.
Perhaps it's useful to suggest it's a good idea that it's easy to release the tack of an asy, e.g. by leading the tack line back to the cockpit. Then the kite can be retrieved by the sheet or simply allowed to be a big flag as the boat heads up to stop?

That is how I start the drop but my tack line is still able to stay in the jammer on the opposite side of the boat plus reach the cockpit on the leeward side. That was one of my points, that the sheet (or in this case tack line) is long enough. The windward sheet will do the same comfortably & the halyard has enough length to clear the boom etc & still have some left at the jammer in the cockpit. Therefore, we do not have to worry about stowing any lines. We can leave them as is until other jobs have been finished.
All with figure 8's in the tails
If we are set up & ready the sail comes much down faster than if we were not ready - as when we ran aground.
However, MOBs create a different set of circumstances & easily catch one unawares.