Astute Sub grounding 'catalogue of errors'

[jonjo]

If you can name any of the jobs listed that can be done away with, please carry on.

Since you ask I would assume all of them can be dismissed until there is strong evidence to the contrary. Here is Jonjo's plan for RN v2.0.

The MOD and the RN is technically bankrupt if you compare expected income and expenditure with the legal obligations placed on a company director. This presents an excellent opportunity to clear the decks and start again.

If I was Prime Minister I would declare the Royal Navy bankrupt and dismiss all 35,000 RN service people and only pay them statutory minimum redundancy pay. If it is fair for industrial workers at a defunct factory then it is fair for the military.

The RN takes the largest chunk of the defence budget so having closed down the old RN I would assume 40,000 of the 90,000 MOD civil servants are not required and sack them on the same statutory payment minimums.

Now I have £20 billion per year to build the new RN.


I would reconstitute the surface fleet 50% larger than it is today based on 30 frigates and destroyers split into 6 flotillas designated:

• Atlantic South
• Med
• Arabia
• Home
• Nato-1
• Nato-2

6 commodores would be appointed to head the flotillas and directly granted a £1 billion annual budget to cover salaries, maintenance and shore support. For example if the 3 southern commodores decide to be based at Gib they can club together and fund their own naval base there. Commodore Arabia might also decide to swing a deal with French and base extra stores at Djibouti.

Once the new fleet is established the annual conference of commodores might collectively decide their operational effectiveness would be enhanced with a UK based intelligence support HQ. They would issue an invitation to quote and a handful of the disposed Admirals might, following a competitive tendering process, be able to ditch their Mc Donalds chief burger flipper apron and return to their old job.

Some back of a fag pack sums indicate each commodore will be able save ½ billion annually for a rainy day or shiny new ships.

After a couple of years jonjo’s RN v2.0 would find the right number of admirals through supply and demand and competitive tender. I reckon 4 would be the right number.

 

[Woodlouse]

And what about all of those other MOD jobs that are being done by RN officers? Presumably you feel the same way about Army and RAF senior staff being used in this manner as well and would see them sacked. So who would you like to see doing their jobs? Civilian civil servants?

 

[jonjo]

And what about all of those other MOD jobs that are being done by RN officers? Presumably you feel the same way about Army and RAF senior staff being used in this manner as well and would see them sacked. So who would you like to see doing their jobs? Civilian civil servants?

All jobs in my new v2.0 UK military establishment are non jobs unless the commander of a front line fighting unit is prepared to fund it. So taking the Army as the example, the whole Army annual budget would be allocated directly to about 22 colonels to spend.

In the new model an HQ or back-end support job will cease to exist unless a colonel or flotilla commodore decides it adds value or helps him achieve his unit's remit.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Since you ask I would assume all of them can be dismissed until there is strong evidence to the contrary. Here is Jonjo's plan for RN v2.0.

The MOD and the RN is technically bankrupt if you compare expected income and expenditure with the legal obligations placed on a company director. This presents an excellent opportunity to clear the decks and start again.

If I was Prime Minister I would declare the Royal Navy bankrupt and dismiss all 35,000 RN service people and only pay them statutory minimum redundancy pay. If it is fair for industrial workers at a defunct factory then it is fair for the military.

The RN takes the largest chunk of the defence budget so having closed down the old RN I would assume 40,000 of the 90,000 MOD civil servants are not required and sack them on the same statutory payment minimums.

Now I have £20 billion per year to build the new RN.


I would reconstitute the surface fleet 50% larger than it is today based on 30 frigates and destroyers split into 6 flotillas designated:

• Atlantic South
• Med
• Arabia
• Home
• Nato-1
• Nato-2

6 commodores would be appointed to head the flotillas and directly granted a £1 billion annual budget to cover salaries, maintenance and shore support. For example if the 3 southern commodores decide to be based at Gib they can club together and fund their own naval base there. Commodore Arabia might also decide to swing a deal with French and base extra stores at Djibouti.

Once the new fleet is established the annual conference of commodores might collectively decide their operational effectiveness would be enhanced with a UK based intelligence support HQ. They would issue an invitation to quote and a handful of the disposed Admirals might, following a competitive tendering process, be able to ditch their Mc Donalds chief burger flipper apron and return to their old job.

Some back of a fag pack sums indicate each commodore will be able save ½ billion annually for a rainy day or shiny new ships.

After a couple of years jonjo’s RN v2.0 would find the right number of admirals through supply and demand and competitive tender. I reckon 4 would be the right number.

Brilliant but a couple of questions.

As the RN provide our Nuclear Deterrent you have just lost our place on the Security Council of the UN. You've also unilaterally voted out many of our commitments as part of NATO and done away with all submarines so we are now vulnerable to any tin pot country with some cheap subs and no longer have Special Forces insertion capability or intelligence gathering from that area And you just disbanded the entire Royal Marines Commando forces (one of the main go to forces whenever there is trouble)

PS The lead time for building a modern warship is up to twenty years as you don't get them off the shelf at Tesco's so we will have to do without a Navy for a while. No amphibious capabilities, no aircraft in your plan.

The reality is that it's all a bit expensive, and some of the senior officers have been having very sleepless nights recently trying to extract the gallon of capability out of the quart of manpower and resources we are left with. There has been blood on the bulkheads in Whitehall.

You play these games at staff college and the answers don't get any easier then either.

 

[Poignard]

. . . new model . . .

New model? New Model Army? Now where have I heard that before?

Ah yes - I remember now.

So when are you planning to behead the monarch, jonjo?

 

[Poignard]

As the RN provide our Nuclear Deterrent you have just lost our place on the Security Council of the UN. You've also unilaterally voted out many of our commitments as part of NATO and done away with all submarines so we are now vulnerable to any tin pot country with some cheap subs and no longer have Special Forces insertion capability or intelligence gathering from that area And you just disbanded the entire Royal Marines Commando forces (one of the main go to forces whenever there is trouble)

PS The lead time for building a modern warship is up to twenty years as you don't get them off the shelf at Tesco's so we will have to do without a Navy for a while. No amphibious capabilities, no aircraft in your plan.

You must be the best deterrent we have!

Any potential enemy reading your rather gung-ho posts would say to themselves:

"If their chaplains are so belligerent, the real soldiers be terrifying!"

 

[Twister_Ken]

So when are you planning to behead the monarch, jonjo?

Don't do beheading nowadays, just a severance package.

 

[oldbilbo]

I like the way this thread has now turned towards how things might be improved.

It becomes quite clear that Staff College attendees are encouraged most strongly to 'toe the party line' and not make waves. I do take issue with the notion that 'Staff College' necessarily improves the quality of management when it counts i.e. on Operations. What does emerge is a very strong emphasis on 'clones' and not on original, radical, or 'contrarian' thinking. This is graphically demonstrated within Alan Mallinson's recent 'The Making of the British Army'.....

All military history - recent or remote - and my own observations of commanders and followers 'on Ops' leads to the conclusion that we need rather more competent individuals who are prepared and - crucially - encouraged to contribute their full support when things may be going wrong, and not just sit on their hands while the mission and the ship ( or aircraft ) goes to 'ratsnit' around them, thus opening up another promotion opportunity.

I've had occasion, as a very junior Pilot Officer/Navigator to raise with a very senior Air Vice Marshall/Pilot that he was repeatedly flying 'outside limits' during approaches. You can bet your sweet bippy I did that with some trepidation, but it was the right thing to do, and it was my responsibility so to do. We both survived the day.

Should the only officer expected to think and act in the honest interests of the ship, without fear of retribution, be absent/in his cabin/unavailable, then someone else must be capable and willing to step up to the crease. Fully. And that didn't happen on 'Astute'. That we have a culture in the RN which appears to constrain 'lower ranks' from raising any hazardous development and asking for a re-think by an officer, I ask whether this serves the needs of the nation - or protects the inadequacy of those wearing Senior Uniform.

I'm of the view that this culture needs urgent revision, so that the nation's huge investment in quality service-people gets the best ROI by giving each of them the confidence that they can 'pipe up' when needed without fear for their jobs.

 

[john_morris_uk]

You must be the best deterrent we have!

Any potential enemy reading your rather gung-ho posts would say to themselves:

"If their chaplains are so belligerent, the real soldiers be terrifying!"

That's quite funny. When I was a student I was a member of CND and almost a pacifist. Whilst I look after the people who fight, I am a firm believer in real life that fighting should be very much a matter of last resort. In a sense fighting is a result of the failure of diplomatic means.

Having served alongside all three services in various conflicts I can still be protective of them and what they do, and especially so when armchair critics spout drivel. Oh there I go being belligerent again!

 

[jonjo]

Brilliant but a couple of questions.

As the RN provide our Nuclear Deterrent you have just lost our place on the Security Council of the UN. You've also unilaterally voted out many of our commitments as part of NATO and done away with all submarines

You forget I have only spent £6 billion of my £20 billion budget.

First consider what I have achieved for £6 billion. The backbone of the surface fleet increased by 50%, Gib back on the British military map, the first standing RN presence in the Med for 30 years likewise the Gulf. I have also quadrupled the RN surface ships dedicated to protecting the Falklands.

Ok let’s deal with the next big ticket RN function, the nuclear deterrent. First I would can any hair brained scheme to implement this on the cheap with hunter killer launched cruise missiles. The limited range of a cruise missile means it might take 2 weeks to get a sub into the launch area. A nuclear deterrent with a built in 2 week response time is a joke plus there is risk of the en-route high speed sub being jumped on.

I would announce that in pursuit of global nuclear disarmament the UK was reducing its continuous trident patrols and would limit these to 6 months per year with a reduced missile count per sub. This means one of the tridents can be mothballed and raided for spares, a 3rd sub would be in a 3 month refit state of readiness. There would be two operational trident subs maintained at 36 hour and 2 week state of readiness. Only two crews would be required. On this basis a credible nuclear deterrent could be extended for 10 years with no capital cost and guess a 30% annual saving. Call it £1.5 billion per year.

Right £12.5 billion left to spend...

Sub force. Yup we need one of these and the fleet is already too small. If they can fix the Astute toilets, I would sanction the build of another 2 to bring the force up to 10, topped up with a few diesel electrics. Tis always useful to have a few D/E subs on call to spook the enemy. £2 billion per annum paid direct to Admiral Subs should cover that.

Ho hmm the marines, they are really just an elite infantry force who very occasionally got to war in ships. Despite the Gulf nicked dinghy debacle I think the unit is worth preserving so I would transfer them to a new Army littoral division comprised of the Paras, Marines and East Anglicans. I suspect the RN culture has made the marines too nice and soft, they have spent too many hours in front BBC documentary cameras suckling starving babies with formula milk on hurricane wrecked islands. The Army culture would roughen them up plus I would put half a dozen mean ******* Parra officers in at the top to restablished a no surrender worrior culture in the Marines.

 

[Grumpybear]

Ah so the one part of the report not conducive to your theory is a smoke screen.


Try to think of the handheld plotter as a stand-by crutch for those days when the 21st century Royal Navy does not attain your 20th century exemplary levels of performance.

At this point I should remind you that the loss of Singapore can in part be attributed to the loss of HMS Prince of Wales, which in turn can be attributed to the RN pranging one of its scarce carriers on a reef in the Carribean.

What I want is a R.N. able to put to sea when the challenge arrives, the Royal Navy is not an experiential vehicle for macho navigators to prove the invention of the silicon chip was superfluous to their needs.

more likely saved us from losing the carrier to the Japs as well, given the quality and number of ship borne fighters available at the time.

 

[Fascadale]

Having read through this entire thread I now realise what a lucky escape I had in the Inner Sound a couple of years ago.

This vehicle and my MAB were on a collision course. I was the stand on vessel. Had I known then what I know now; that a surfaced submarine takes a bit of steering, that the people on it might be a bit tired and sloppy about their work, then I would have been even more concerned than I was.

Fortunately it did the seamanlike thing, turned to starboard and went round my stern. Disappointingly, it did not give one short blast as it turned, but then maybe fitting an underwater airhorn is not so wise.

On the subject of the Navy though, I do find myself wondering why we have a blue water navy. It all seems so ridiculous to continue with the world power posturing. Britain is now a small European nation (and there's nothing wrong with that) We should have a small coastal navy to reflect the this reality.

How silly is it to be talking about the Chinese navy in the same sentence as the RN. China is the growing world superpower, the UK is quite the opposite.

The Swedish Navy seems a bit more realist in its aspirations, it even has some very nice new ships to keep its shipbuilders in work. But no aircraftless carriers or mega submarines. The Norwegians also have some fairly smart ships but they don't seem hung up with the "global reach" bit.

 

[maxi77]

You forget I have only spent £6 billion of my £20 billion budget.

First consider what I have achieved for £6 billion. The backbone of the surface fleet increased by 50%, Gib back on the British military map, the first standing RN presence in the Med for 30 years likewise the Gulf. I have also quadrupled the RN surface ships dedicated to protecting the Falklands.

Ok let’s deal with the next big ticket RN function, the nuclear deterrent. First I would can any hair brained scheme to implement this on the cheap with hunter killer launched cruise missiles. The limited range of a cruise missile means it might take 2 weeks to get a sub into the launch area. A nuclear deterrent with a built in 2 week response time is a joke plus there is risk of the en-route high speed sub being jumped on.

I would announce that in pursuit of global nuclear disarmament the UK was reducing its continuous trident patrols and would limit these to 6 months per year with a reduced missile count per sub. This means one of the tridents can be mothballed and raided for spares, a 3rd sub would be in a 3 month refit state of readiness. There would be two operational trident subs maintained at 36 hour and 2 week state of readiness. Only two crews would be required. On this basis a credible nuclear deterrent could be extended for 10 years with no capital cost and guess a 30% annual saving. Call it £1.5 billion per year.

Right £12.5 billion left to spend...

Sub force. Yup we need one of these and the fleet is already too small. If they can fix the Astute toilets, I would sanction the build of another 2 to bring the force up to 10, topped up with a few diesel electrics. Tis always useful to have a few D/E subs on call to spook the enemy. £2 billion per annum paid direct to Admiral Subs should cover that.

Ho hmm the marines, they are really just an elite infantry force who very occasionally got to war in ships. Despite the Gulf nicked dinghy debacle I think the unit is worth preserving so I would transfer them to a new Army littoral division comprised of the Paras, Marines and East Anglicans. I suspect the RN culture has made the marines too nice and soft, they have spent too many hours in front BBC documentary cameras suckling starving babies with formula milk on hurricane wrecked islands. The Army culture would roughen them up plus I would put half a dozen mean ******* Parra officers in at the top to restablished a no surrender worrior culture in the Marines.

I am really quite comforted by the thought that it is highly unlikely you would ever get a chance to apply your 'improvements'.

 

[Woodlouse]

On the subject of the Navy though, I do find myself wondering why we have a blue water navy. It all seems so ridiculous to continue with the world power posturing. Britain is now a small European nation (and there's nothing wrong with that) We should have a small coastal navy to reflect the this reality.

How silly is it to be talking about the Chinese navy in the same sentence as the RN. China is the growing world superpower, the UK is quite the opposite.

The Swedish Navy seems a bit more realist in its aspirations, it even has some very nice new ships to keep its shipbuilders in work. But no aircraftless carriers or mega submarines. The Norwegians also have some fairly smart ships but they don't seem hung up with the "global reach" bit.

We're not just a small European nation yet. We still have interests and assets in far flung parts of the world. There are small nations, former colonies that rely on the UK for their protection. We are also an Island, exports and imports are the lifeblood of the country and that means we need to be able to protect our shipping all over the world. Then of course there is our contribution to the UN and NATO. Like it or not we still need a Navy, and realistically we need a bigger one that we currently have and are heading towards.

 

[Grumpybear]

I am really quite comforted by the thought that it is highly unlikely you would ever get a chance to apply your 'improvements'.

to say nothing of the fact that jonjo5 has already fallen victim to the rank inflation disease. to put a commodore in charge of 6 frigates when, until squadrons were streamlined out of existence, they were led by captains would be a scandalous waste of public money. NOw, remind me who was inveighing against such things?

 

[Vara]

Ho hmm the marines, they are really just an elite infantry force who very occasionally got to war in ships. Despite the Gulf nicked dinghy debacle I think the unit is worth preserving so I would transfer them to a new Army littoral division comprised of the Paras, Marines and East Anglicans. I suspect the RN culture has made the marines too nice and soft, they have spent too many hours in front BBC documentary cameras suckling starving babies with formula milk on hurricane wrecked islands. The Army culture would roughen them up plus I would put half a dozen mean ******* Parra officers in at the top to restablished a no surrender worrior culture in the Marines.

Deep joy, are you sure that you don't work at MOD, that's the sort of plan only they could come up with.

East Anglicans? Is that the regiment that John would have joined if he had had the good sense to join the army.

 

[Kukri]

On the subject of the Navy though, I do find myself wondering why we have a blue water navy. It all seems so ridiculous to continue with the world power posturing. Britain is now a small European nation (and there's nothing wrong with that) We should have a small coastal navy to reflect the this reality.

How silly is it to be talking about the Chinese navy in the same sentence as the RN. China is the growing world superpower, the UK is quite the opposite.

You maye be quite comfortable in a world ruled by China; I can assure you that, having spent quite a chunk of my life in that country, speaking the language, I most certainly would not be. China combines the less agreeable features of both Imperial Germany and Nazi Germany, and none of the pleasant attributes of today's Germany. So far as China is concerned, they are in a competition, case need by way of warfare, for the remaining resources of a shrinking and overpopulated planet, and their Navy is very much a part of the plan.

I don't know about you, but I hope to carry on driving my car, heating my home and eating. Absent international trade by water, we cannot do these things in this island; China may not need a blue water navy, but, like Wilhelmine Germany, China is getting one. We, in this island, need one.

 

[jonjo]

to say nothing of the fact that jonjo5 has already fallen victim to the rank inflation disease. to put a commodore in charge of 6 frigates when, until squadrons were streamlined out of existence, they were led by captains would be a scandalous waste of public money.

Each squadron would be centred on a T45 which is the size of a WWII light cruiser. Even back then a light cruiser CO was a captain I understand, so a commodore would be a sensible rank for the squadron commander.

 

[Grumpybear]

Each squadron would be centred on a T45 which is the size of a WWII light cruiser. Even back then a light cruiser CO was a captain I understand, so a commodore would be a sensible rank for the squadron commander.

I think you'll find the T45s are mainly if not wholly commanders' commands.

 

[Bav34]

I think you'll find the T45s are mainly if not wholly commanders' commands.

4-2

http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/The-Fleet/Ships/Destroyers/Type-45-Destroyers