Astute Sub grounding 'catalogue of errors'

[jonjo]

BThe WECDIS is a smokescreen to try to get some kit denied them by Gordon.

Ah so the one part of the report not conducive to your theory is a smoke screen.

I have taken boats into places I have never been before in poor conditions and

Try to think of the handheld plotter as a stand-by crutch for those days when the 21st century Royal Navy does not attain your 20th century exemplary levels of performance.

At this point I should remind you that the loss of Singapore can in part be attributed to the loss of HMS Prince of Wales, which in turn can be attributed to the RN pranging one of its scarce carriers on a reef in the Carribean.

What I want is a R.N. able to put to sea when the challenge arrives, the Royal Navy is not an experiential vehicle for macho navigators to prove the invention of the silicon chip was superfluous to their needs.

 

[john_morris_uk]

_______________________________________________________

It's this concept of being promoted solely because you have served the time and done the courses that seems so bizarre to civilians.

In the commercial world you get promotion because a vacancy exists and you are the best candidate to fill it (Murdoch empire excluded, of course!) whereas in the armed forces you get promoted regardless of whether there is a job for you. ("At last the Dodo said, 'everybody has won, and all must have prizes.'").

This results in a top-heavy management structure with over-qualified people occupying most of the posts. The cost of paying all these superfluous people must be enormous. Also, if there is no competition for promotion people will not stick their necks out or show initiative but (like Buggins) simply await their turn.


The trouble is that until you leave the cloistered service environment you can't form an objective view. ("What do they know of England, who only England know")

Promoted 'because you have done the time' went a long time ago in the RN. You used to get promoted as far as Lt Cdr on 'time served' - with the option for early promotion if you were doing really well. Nowadays even promotion from Lt to Lt Cdr is on ability. With respect, you are somewhat behind the times with your concept of how the military operates.

 

[maxi77]

Ah so the one part of the report not conducive to your theory is a smoke screen.


Try to think of the handheld plotter as a stand-by crutch for those days when the 21st century Royal Navy does not attain your 20th century exemplary levels of performance.

At this point I should remind you that the loss of Singapore can in part be attributed to the loss of HMS Price of Wales, which in turn can be attributed to the RN pranging once of its scarce carriers on a reef in the Carribean.

What I want is a R.N. able to put to sea when the challenge arrives, the Royal Navy is not an experiential vehicle for macho navigators to prove the invention of the silicon chip was superfluous to their needs.

Technology will never compensate for incompetance. They knew where they were, they still hit the putty. If they had operated as taught they would have overcome the problems they had, just to give a for example, never go onto the bridge without looking at the plot to see exactly where you are and where you are going. If you have communication problems with the control room get something working fast, you can do nothing if you cannot communicate. There were too many with their thumbs in their bumbs and minds in neutral as an old and bold GI told me in 1964.

 

[Kukri]

The bottom line is that the RN really must put a stop this sort of thing, in its own interest.

I would not go as far as shooting an Admiral, but that did work wonders when it was tried...

 

[Twister_Ken]

If you want to shoot an admiral, there are plenty to choose from (army ranks are actually Royal Marine Generals)

First Sea Lord Admiral Sir Mark Stanhope
Fleet Commander & Deputy Chief of Naval Staff Admiral George Zambellas DSC
Chief of naval Personnel and Training and Second Sea Lord Vice Admiral Charles Montgomery CBE ADC
Deputy Fleet Commander Vice Admiral P A Jones CB
Commander Operation Rear Admiral I F Corder
Assistant Chief of Naval Staff Capability and Assistant Chief of Naval Staff (Support) Rear Admiral P D Hudson CBE
Assistant Chief of Naval Staff (Aviation & Carriers) Rear Admiral T A Cunningham
Assistant Chief of Naval Staff (Personnel) and Naval Secretary Rear Admiral D G Steel CBE
Commander of the United Kingdom Maritime Force (COMUKMARFOR) Rear Admiral D L Potts
Flag Officer Sea Training Rear Admiral C C C Johnstone CBE
Flag Officer Scotland, Northern England & Northern Ireland and Flag Officer Reserve Forces Rear Admiral C J Hockley
Assistant Chief of Naval Staff (Policy) Rear Admiral M J Parr
Commander UK Amphibious Forces Major General E G M Davis CBE RM
Defence Reform (Maritime) Implementation Team Leader Rear Admiral T P Fraser
Surgeon General Surgeon Vice Admiral P I Raffaelli QHP
Chief of Defence Intelligence Vice Admiral A D Richards
Climate & Energy Security Envoy Rear Admiral N Morisetti CB
Director (Precision Attack & Controller of the Navy on the Navy Board) Rear Admiral A M Hussain CB
Assistant Chief of Defence Staff (Intelligence Capability) Major General J H Thomas CB DSO RM
Operations Director, Military Aviation Authority Rear Admiral S B Charlier
Head of the British Defence Staff (Washington) & Defence Attaché Major General F H R Howes OBE RM
Deputy Chief Executive UK Hydrographic Office Rear Admiral N R Lambert
Director Training & Education Rear Admiral A R Rymer
Senior Directing Staff (Naval), Royal College of Defence Studies Major General S T Chicken OBE RM
Assistant Chief of Defence Staff (Nuclear & Chemical, Biological) Rear Admiral J H J Gower OBE
Permanent Joint Headquarters Appointments
Chief of Joint Operations Lieutenant General D A Capewell OBE RM
Chief of Staff (Operations), PJHQ Major General G K Messenger DSO OBE RM
Defence Equipment & Support Appointments
Chief of Materiel (Fleet) (and Chief of Fleet Support on the Navy Board) Vice Admiral A D H Mathews CB
Director Submarines Rear Admiral S R Lister OBE
Chief of Strategic Systems Executive Rear Admiral S J Lloyd
NATO, EU and International Appointments
Chief of Staff Supreme Allied Commander (Transformation) Vice Admiral C A Johnstone-Burt OBE
Deputy Chief of Staff, Force Readiness Supreme HQ Allied Powers Europe, NATO Major General A Salmon CMG OBE RM
Deputy Director EU Military Staff Rear Admiral B N B Williams CBE
Chief of Staff Maritime Component Command Naples, NATO Rear Admiral J S Westbrook MBE
Deputy Commander Striking Force NATO Rear Admiral R G Harding OBE
Director Force Reintegration, HQ International Security & Assistance Force, Afghanistan Major General D A Hook CBE RM

Now, exactly how many ships has the RN got?

 

[Bav34]

We could always shoot the Messenger

 

[Kukri]

If you want to shoot an admiral, there are plenty to choose from (army ranks are actually Royal Marine Generals)

First Sea Lord Admiral Sir Mark Stanhope
Fleet Commander & Deputy Chief of Naval Staff Admiral George Zambellas DSC
Chief of naval Personnel and Training and Second Sea Lord Vice Admiral Charles Montgomery CBE ADC
Deputy Fleet Commander Vice Admiral P A Jones CB
Commander Operation Rear Admiral I F Corder
Assistant Chief of Naval Staff Capability and Assistant Chief of Naval Staff (Support) Rear Admiral P D Hudson CBE
Assistant Chief of Naval Staff (Aviation & Carriers) Rear Admiral T A Cunningham
Assistant Chief of Naval Staff (Personnel) and Naval Secretary Rear Admiral D G Steel CBE
Commander of the United Kingdom Maritime Force (COMUKMARFOR) Rear Admiral D L Potts
Flag Officer Sea Training Rear Admiral C C C Johnstone CBE
Flag Officer Scotland, Northern England & Northern Ireland and Flag Officer Reserve Forces Rear Admiral C J Hockley
Assistant Chief of Naval Staff (Policy) Rear Admiral M J Parr
Commander UK Amphibious Forces Major General E G M Davis CBE RM
Defence Reform (Maritime) Implementation Team Leader Rear Admiral T P Fraser
Surgeon General Surgeon Vice Admiral P I Raffaelli QHP
Chief of Defence Intelligence Vice Admiral A D Richards
Climate & Energy Security Envoy Rear Admiral N Morisetti CB
Director (Precision Attack & Controller of the Navy on the Navy Board) Rear Admiral A M Hussain CB
Assistant Chief of Defence Staff (Intelligence Capability) Major General J H Thomas CB DSO RM
Operations Director, Military Aviation Authority Rear Admiral S B Charlier
Head of the British Defence Staff (Washington) & Defence Attaché Major General F H R Howes OBE RM
Deputy Chief Executive UK Hydrographic Office Rear Admiral N R Lambert
Director Training & Education Rear Admiral A R Rymer
Senior Directing Staff (Naval), Royal College of Defence Studies Major General S T Chicken OBE RM
Assistant Chief of Defence Staff (Nuclear & Chemical, Biological) Rear Admiral J H J Gower OBE
Permanent Joint Headquarters Appointments
Chief of Joint Operations Lieutenant General D A Capewell OBE RM
Chief of Staff (Operations), PJHQ Major General G K Messenger DSO OBE RM
Defence Equipment & Support Appointments
Chief of Materiel (Fleet) (and Chief of Fleet Support on the Navy Board) Vice Admiral A D H Mathews CB
Director Submarines Rear Admiral S R Lister OBE
Chief of Strategic Systems Executive Rear Admiral S J Lloyd
NATO, EU and International Appointments
Chief of Staff Supreme Allied Commander (Transformation) Vice Admiral C A Johnstone-Burt OBE
Deputy Chief of Staff, Force Readiness Supreme HQ Allied Powers Europe, NATO Major General A Salmon CMG OBE RM
Deputy Director EU Military Staff Rear Admiral B N B Williams CBE
Chief of Staff Maritime Component Command Naples, NATO Rear Admiral J S Westbrook MBE
Deputy Commander Striking Force NATO Rear Admiral R G Harding OBE
Director Force Reintegration, HQ International Security & Assistance Force, Afghanistan Major General D A Hook CBE RM

Now, exactly how many ships has the RN got?

I see we have an Admiral in charge of carriers, but no carriers.

As some day it may happen that a victim must be found,
I've got a little list — I've got a little list
Of Admirals and Captains who might well be underground,
And who never would be missed — who never would be missed!
There's the Admiral for carriers, the which we have not got —
We could get along without him till we get another lot —
Two Admirals for training, but the training isn't right —
All persons who have jobs in Europe whose work seems rather light —
As for Admirals for integration, transformation - we insist —
They'd none of 'em be missed — they'd none of 'em be missed!

(Chorus
He's got 'em on the list — he's got 'em on the list;
And they'll none of 'em be missed — they'll none of 'em be missed.

 

[prv]

If you want to shoot an admiral, there are plenty to choose from (army ranks are actually Royal Marine Generals)

First Sea Lord Admiral Sir Mark Stanhope
Fleet Commander & Deputy Chief of Naval Staff Admiral George Zambellas DSC
Chief of naval Personnel and Training and Second Sea Lord Vice Admiral Charles Montgomery CBE ADC
Deputy Fleet Commander Vice Admiral P A Jones CB
Commander Operation Rear Admiral I F Corder
Assistant Chief of Naval Staff Capability and Assistant Chief of Naval Staff (Support) Rear Admiral P D Hudson CBE
Assistant Chief of Naval Staff (Aviation & Carriers) Rear Admiral T A Cunningham
Assistant Chief of Naval Staff (Personnel) and Naval Secretary Rear Admiral D G Steel CBE
Commander of the United Kingdom Maritime Force (COMUKMARFOR) Rear Admiral D L Potts
Flag Officer Sea Training Rear Admiral C C C Johnstone CBE
Flag Officer Scotland, Northern England & Northern Ireland and Flag Officer Reserve Forces Rear Admiral C J Hockley
Assistant Chief of Naval Staff (Policy) Rear Admiral M J Parr
Commander UK Amphibious Forces Major General E G M Davis CBE RM
Defence Reform (Maritime) Implementation Team Leader Rear Admiral T P Fraser
Surgeon General Surgeon Vice Admiral P I Raffaelli QHP
Chief of Defence Intelligence Vice Admiral A D Richards
Climate & Energy Security Envoy Rear Admiral N Morisetti CB
Director (Precision Attack & Controller of the Navy on the Navy Board) Rear Admiral A M Hussain CB
Assistant Chief of Defence Staff (Intelligence Capability) Major General J H Thomas CB DSO RM
Operations Director, Military Aviation Authority Rear Admiral S B Charlier
Head of the British Defence Staff (Washington) & Defence Attaché Major General F H R Howes OBE RM
Deputy Chief Executive UK Hydrographic Office Rear Admiral N R Lambert
Director Training & Education Rear Admiral A R Rymer
Senior Directing Staff (Naval), Royal College of Defence Studies Major General S T Chicken OBE RM
Assistant Chief of Defence Staff (Nuclear & Chemical, Biological) Rear Admiral J H J Gower OBE
Permanent Joint Headquarters Appointments
Chief of Joint Operations Lieutenant General D A Capewell OBE RM
Chief of Staff (Operations), PJHQ Major General G K Messenger DSO OBE RM
Defence Equipment & Support Appointments
Chief of Materiel (Fleet) (and Chief of Fleet Support on the Navy Board) Vice Admiral A D H Mathews CB
Director Submarines Rear Admiral S R Lister OBE
Chief of Strategic Systems Executive Rear Admiral S J Lloyd
NATO, EU and International Appointments
Chief of Staff Supreme Allied Commander (Transformation) Vice Admiral C A Johnstone-Burt OBE
Deputy Chief of Staff, Force Readiness Supreme HQ Allied Powers Europe, NATO Major General A Salmon CMG OBE RM
Deputy Director EU Military Staff Rear Admiral B N B Williams CBE
Chief of Staff Maritime Component Command Naples, NATO Rear Admiral J S Westbrook MBE
Deputy Commander Striking Force NATO Rear Admiral R G Harding OBE
Director Force Reintegration, HQ International Security & Assistance Force, Afghanistan Major General D A Hook CBE RM

Now, exactly how many ships has the RN got?

Depends what you count as a "ship". According to Wikipedia,

In total there are 79 commissioned ships in the navy. 19 of the commissioned vessels are major surface combatants (6 guided missile destroyers and 13 frigates) and 11 are nuclear powered submarines (4 ballistic missile submarines and 7 fleet submarines). In addition the Navy possesses an aircraft carrier, a helicopter carrier and 2 landing platform docks.

I count 36 admirals in your list, so two more than the number of actual fighting warships. The others in the 79 are minesweepers, patrol craft (mostly the little grey mobos used by university cadets), survey ships, and HMS Victory.

Pete

 

[Kukri]

36 Admirals, 19 major surface combatants, 11 submarines, one carrier with no aircraft, one helicopter carrier, two assault ships - two admirals left over...they never would be missed...

 

[jonjo]

Don't forget the all the RN commodores, a commodore is meant to command a flottila.

I think in the US Navy a commodore is a junior admiral rank.

 

[Poignard]

Nowadays even promotion from Lt to Lt Cdr is on ability.

I did not for one moment suggest that people are promoted who lack ability. It goes without saying that people must be competent to undertake any duty the rank qualifies them for. But what I would like to know is: are people still being promoted when there is no current, or imminent, vacancy requiring someone of the rank they are being promoted to? If the answer is yes, then a top heavy organisation must inevitably result and public money is being wasted.

With respect, you are somewhat behind the times with your concept of how the military operates.

You respectfully point out that I am behind the times with my concept of how the military operates. I respectfully take your point.

However, I think I am not behind the times in my concept of how government funded organisations, self-perpetuating and shielded from competition and effective public scrutiny, are prone to a form of insatiable ‘mission creep’; continually demanding more and more resources in order to fulfil a role determined largely by them. It’s not a crime, or even incompetence, it’s human nature.

The problem with armed forces is that the only really effective means of measuring their competitiveness is by starting a war. War games, peace-keeping, supporting the civil power, etc. are all very well but they are no substitute for the real thing!

Anyway, I’m comforted to have your assurances that the armed forces do not have a single man on the payroll who is not absolutely essential, or whose services could not be obtained more cheaply from an external source.

 

[uxb]

The problem with armed forces is that the only really effective means of measuring their competitiveness is by starting a war. War games, peace-keeping, supporting the civil power, etc. are all very well but they are no substitute for the real thing!

QUOTE]

I like that idea - all the unemployed yoofs would have something exciting to do and somewhere to stay ( tents and trenches are cool...) Our manufacturing industry would get a nice boost into the bargain.

The country as a whole would get a double boost if the military were really that bad...

 

[Kukri]

To clarify - I think the RN should be, as an minimum, twice as large as it is today.

I am prepared to see my taxes spent to achieve that.

We need a strong Navy.

This little extract from today's edition of the newspaper of the Communist Party of China makes my point for me, I think,

http://www.globaltimes.cn/NEWS/tabi...crisis-points-to-Chinas-naval-weaknesses.aspx

For those who don't follow matters maritime, the PLA Navy is building bases in Pakistan and in Sri Lanka...and this is the official Chinese map of its territorial waters...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine-dotted_line

 

[Kukri]

Which is why the RN must get its PR right and must not find itself lampooned in the media...

 

[maxi77]

I did not for one moment suggest that people are promoted who lack ability. It goes without saying that people must be competent to undertake any duty the rank qualifies them for. But what I would like to know is: are people still being promoted when there is no current, or imminent, vacancy requiring someone of the rank they are being promoted to? If the answer is yes, then a top heavy organisation must inevitably result and public money is being wasted.

The way the system works is at each promotion time they estimate the number of new people they need in each rank and then select enough to meet that, it can mean in some specialities promotion can be slow. The services tend to be in my experience a lot better at selecting, training, and promoting people than industry.

 

[john_morris_uk]

If you get off your prejudices for a few seconds you will see that a large (ie more than half) of the senior officers on that list don't even work for the RN any more. In all four services (counting RN, Royal Marines, Army and RAF) once you get to a senior enough rank, you end up in Whitehall or NATO or some sort if Joint Organisation. If you look carefully you will see that there are senior RN officers running all sorts of things. My bosses boss is an RAF officer at the moment.

If you can name any of the jobs listed that can be done away with, please carry on. We might not have any Carriers floating at the moment, but we have one and a bit half built and you can put the apprentice fitter in charge if the project and planning and overseeing the developments if you want...

 

[john_morris_uk]

The way the system works is at each promotion time they estimate the number of new people they need in each rank and then select enough to meet that, it can mean in some specialities promotion can be slow. The services tend to be in my experience a lot better at selecting, training, and promoting people than industry.

Furthermore, at Flag rank you are only promoted to a specific post. You might be the best thing since sliced bread, but if there are no vacancies then out you go.

 

[benjenbav]

As a taxpayer, I am pretty happy with the job the services have done during my life which is to stand between me and the bad people.

Occasionally there have been issues which have made me question whether I am getting full value for my tax dollar, for example the grounding of this submarine, but this doesn't make me want to have a witch hunt although I'm pleased that an enquiry was held so that lessons can be learned.

Sadly, the commanding officer has to carry the can. But, without knowing him personally, I'm pretty confident that he wouldn't have got where he did without being good at his job.

People make mistakes. We just need to learn from them and move on with as much humanity as we can muster.

 

[Kukri]

the real message here is that the RN is just not getting its message across to the public- historically it was always good at this - Navy Days, ship visits, etc. But it has not brought the modern media on side and like merchant shipping it has become all but invisible.

 

[Twister_Ken]

If you get off your prejudices for a few seconds you will see that a large (ie more than half) of the senior officers on that list don't even work for the RN any more.

You may be right, but they're listed on an RN website here so it does rather look as if they may be receiving dark blue pay cheques.