Astute Sub grounding 'catalogue of errors'

Twister_Ken said:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17814010

"Rear Adm Corder said he was confident the HMS Astute incident was not "indicative of wider failings" within the submarine service."

Well, he would say that, wouldn't he?
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Don't dismiss out of hand the remote possibility that he might be telling the truth. Also, buckling under pressure from one's superiors (which I suspect was the real problem here, leading to a rushed and fumbling evolution) is actually quite unusual in the submarine service, but on the other hand, is not unknown outside the armed forces.
 
Sub was grounded in October 2010.

"Estimates for the cost of repair have not yet been completed."

Seems the MOD uses the same boatyard as me! :D
 
Not sure how radar would have helped. A simple chartplotter and good eyesight is all that was needed - the bank is well marked on the charts, also got flashing buoys marking it's outer edge.

Radar would have shown the shore outline, but they were well off it when they grounded. Seems like they were just pretty careless and did not have a simple plan to stay in deep water as they transferred some of the trial crew to the tender taking them ashore.
 
kyleview said:
Not sure how radar would have helped. A simple chartplotter and good eyesight is all that was needed - the bank is well marked on the charts, also got flashing buoys marking it's outer edge.

Radar would have shown the shore outline, but they were well off it when they grounded. Seems like they were just pretty careless and did not have a simple plan to stay in deep water as they transferred some of the trial crew to the tender taking them ashore.
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not just trials crew - some senior officers who wanted to go home in a hurry. too much of a hurry to wait for a proper plan, and a captain who thought his career was in danger if he told the boss to wait? it was, but not the way he thought.

I think it was Nevil Shute the novelist who, when in the navy during WW2, found the only officers who would take a decision on their own authority were people with private means. they could literally afford to do their duty rather than do whatever would would advance their bosses' careers. just the same in peacetime.
 
Back in world war 1 a Destroyer captain tried to take his vessel through the narrows at Kylerea against a 10 knot spring tide about ten miles south of where this incident occured.
Thought his vessel was better than nature-a current caught the bow and he ran sideways onto the rocks.
Not suprisingly he was Court Martialed.
Frankly to end up grounded where the submarine grounded you would need a crew of blind and perhaps deaf men!
At least he didnt wedge himself against the Skye Bridge!
 
Vara said:
That report is horrifying.
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Totally agree.

I reckon that Mrs Bav and I could have handled the situation better given a chart plotter up on deck and a means of comms. to whoever was below operating the controls.

Viz , time of day, experience, fatigue ... whatever you want to bring into the equation is irrelevant.

Your boat is at A ... you need to get it to B without going aground. How difficult can that be?
 
Bav34 said:
Totally agree.

I reckon that Mrs Bav and I could have handled the situation better given a chart plotter up on deck and a means of comms. to whoever was below operating the controls.

Viz , time of day, experience, fatigue ... whatever you want to bring into the equation is irrelevant.

Your boat is at A ... you need to get it to B without going aground. How difficult can that be?
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With the greatest respect, there is a world of difference between you and Mrs Bavon a wee yacht and driving a ferkin great submarine when you are exhausted,stressed,over worked and under great pressure, in the dark and being ordered to do something.
You know not of which you speak.
 
I have been out under the bridge a few times in the last 6 years in pretty windy conditions. It requires some BASIC navigation skills to go between the Red and Green buoys and then head up to Raasay or Plockton even in lumpy conditions.

That said last year I was more aware of avoiding the bank after such a plonker could put a submarine on it! It makes you wonder how they are trained - I don't look at the depth sounder a lot, but I do look at charts and the chartplotter before proceeding.

In this day and age it takes years of investigation (and massive legal fees) to come up with nothing - just avoid saying the blinding obvious and confuse everyone.

Astute has been going up and down outside my house daily this week and they still do not know how much it cost to repair - either it's out of control with a damaged rudder / fin, or the UK chief submarine officer is another plonker which maybe he is.
 
kyleview said:
I have been out under the bridge a few times in the last 6 years in pretty windy conditions. It requires some BASIC navigation skills to go between the Red and Green buoys and then head up to Raasay or Plockton even in lumpy conditions.

That said
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Tried it in a submarine have we? I think you'd find it a bit of a challenge..
 
Having spent my time in the bridge of a submarine, it is a far cry from trying to navigate a yacht from the cockpit with a plotter etc all in view. All you have is a compass repeater and comms with the control room, no chart table no plotting instruments and you cant just nip below and look at the chart. The guy was probably short of sleep and under pressure as were the rest of the crew, his comms with the rest of the boat were dodgy and others who should have been doing the job were too busy.

Last time I was in that area in a boat I was averaging 4 hours sleep every 24 I suspect those guys had not managed any better for some time
 
maxi77 said:
Having spent my time in the bridge of a submarine, it is a far cry from trying to navigate a yacht from the cockpit with a plotter etc all in view. All you have is a compass repeater and comms with the control room, no chart table no plotting instruments and you cant just nip below and look at the chart. The guy was probably short of sleep and under pressure as were the rest of the crew, his comms with the rest of the boat were dodgy and others who should have been doing the job were too busy.

Last time I was in that area in a boat I was averaging 4 hours sleep every 24 I suspect those guys had not managed any better for some time
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Good job we're not at war then, conditions would be much tougher. As to hitting the bricks, it seems as if there was no passage plan and no one keeping a plot. Duh!
 
uxb said:
Tried it in a submarine have we? I think you'd find it a bit of a challenge..
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Not at all - large seaway and blinding obvious. Daily I see off our house in Largs the crew changes from the new Type 45 destroyers and all goes to plan in suitable depths.
 
maxi77 said:
Having spent my time in the bridge of a submarine, it is a far cry from trying to navigate a yacht from the cockpit with a plotter etc all in view. All you have is a compass repeater and comms with the control room, no chart table no plotting instruments and you cant just nip below and look at the chart. The guy was probably short of sleep and under pressure as were the rest of the crew, his comms with the rest of the boat were dodgy and others who should have been doing the job were too busy.

Last time I was in that area in a boat I was averaging 4 hours sleep every 24 I suspect those guys had not managed any better for some time
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Seems like a pretty poor ROI when we only spend £20/30K putting electronics on a yacht but £200/300M on a sub costing £3000M which cannot see a simple sandbank on it's charts - but that's what we get (don't get) for our taxes and the incompetence of the people who spend it.
 
uxb said:
With the greatest respect, there is a world of difference between you and Mrs Bavon a wee yacht and driving a ferkin great submarine when you are exhausted,stressed,over worked and under great pressure, in the dark and being ordered to do something.
You know not of which you speak.
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Of course I can see the difference between driving a sub and navving a small yacht but I still maintain that something as low tech as a £300 chart plotter keeps me off the rocks around Brittany, and if that's not available on a billion pound (?) sub then 1. It should be, 2. If for operational reasons it can't be another system should be in place. That can only be the crews fault regardless of exhaustion stress etc. Isnt this what these guys are trained to cope with?
 
Bav34 said:
Of course I can see the difference between driving a sub and navving a small yacht but I still maintain that something as low tech as a £300 chart plotter keeps me off the rocks around Brittany, and if that's not available on a billion pound (?) sub then 1. It should be, 2. If for operational reasons it can't be another system should be in place. That can only be the crews fault regardless of exhaustion stress etc. Isnt this what these guys are trained to cope with?
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As I said,you - and the other yotty know-it-alls know not of which you speak.

Think of one small point. These boats are built for stealth under the sea. The conning tower is exposed to the sea - at depth..you can't fit electronics there. If its doing a sneaky on the surface you CAN NOT have any light emitting devices there so an iPad is out too. Work the rest out for your self- if you can't then my simple explanation will be too much for such a small mind.
 
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