Astute boots Commander Coles

[maxi77]

I agree with KellysEye, the Commander has been used as a scapegoat; the clue as to why is in the phrase 'more senior officers ordered him to...' Can't be their fault now, can it ?

I did my YMO with a Navy Navigator, he reckoned if any ship he was on even touched the bottom it was he who would definitely face a CM, maybe the C/O as well, which seems right to me.

BTW, Grumpy OG, Astute is tactical - hunter killer - not strategic - ballistic nukes, though the definition is a bit blurred when TLAM land attack cruise missiles are carried, such as Astute will have, making her an SSGN...

No it can't be their fault because they were not responsible for the safe navigation of the vessel. If he felt their demands were unsafe he should have told them so and if directly ordered to continue demanded the senior officer endorsed the ships log with his orders.

Having been the NO of one of Her Majestie's black messengers of death in my captain made it very clear to me what my responsibilities for the safe navigation were, and he check my plans very carefully because when FOSM gave him the command it was made quite clear what would happen if he bent it.

Finally if a submarine CO cannot stand up for the safety of his boat and his crew he doesn't deserve his command.

As for a CM, that will depend on the ouitcome of the Board of Inquiry which will determine if there is a case to answer for hazarding the ship.

 

[Greenwichman]

Tough life: high stakes

As a one-time driver of Her Majesty's war canoes I was always plain about the joys, risks and responsibilities. As long as the sun comes up in the morning and sets again at sunset, grounding your ship or having a collision (or as in Astute's case suffering both) are the kinds of events that are a bit open-and-shut.

You can't be a little bit aground or slightly dented. It doesn't need a court martial to decide that the boat should not have been on the mud; the tug may have been an unfortunate secondary issue, but the total picture is not at all flattering to a professional service.

I don't know the Commander, and at the human level I am sorry for his misfortune (there but for the grace of God go all of us, etc), but it would have been absurd to leave him in command.

The navy has done the right thing; and those in command of other vessels will have been 'encouraged' to work harder to stay afloat.

 

[DownWest]

Not boaty, but, the Vulcan that crashed many years ago was coming in in bad weather with a duff radio altimeter. The Pilot was outranked by his P2, who told him to land anyway. They hit the gear on a drainage ditch short of the runway, which damaged the controls, applying full power to try and get the height needed, it became apparent that it was out of control and rolling. Both the pilots ejected and while injured, survived. The back crew did not. The P2 told me the story and how he got a call from Curtis LeMay who was so impressed that he had got out at 80ft in an old type seat, that the US bought the Martin Baker seats.
Sometime later an RAF friend filled me in on the fact that the P2 ordered the P1 to land, when a diversion would have better. He was extrememy unpopular with many in the service, but retired as an Air Marshal. This was at Heathrow in '56

 

[trapezeartist]

We are in danger of conducting the Kangaroo Court Martial ourselves here. Remember going to court in any walk of life is not a statement of guilt, just a statement of having a case to answer. If the system demands a court martial, then that is the venue for determining the captains guilt or otherwise.

Being totally non-naval, I don't know how the system works in practice, but trying to look at it logically from the outside there seem to be two possible ways of working.
1. The captain is in charge regardless of the rank of who else is on board. (This is the system that operates on Tickety Boo ie I am in charge even when SWMBO is on board, and she's given me permission to say that.) In this case the captain is responsible for running aground, regardless of what the bigwigs were saying.
2. Rank always takes precedence. In that case, if senior ranks told the captain to take his ship too close to shore, they are responsible.

 

[reginaldon]

In the old days they would have court marshalled him for running maground. But in the old days they would have court marshalled the sailors who surrendered to the Iranians for cowardice. These days, I guess everyone gets counselled instead.

And topped them pour l'encourager les autres.

 

[rhumlady]

A final test prior to the finish of the workup maybe;-)

 

[maxi77]

We are in danger of conducting the Kangaroo Court Martial ourselves here. Remember going to court in any walk of life is not a statement of guilt, just a statement of having a case to answer. If the system demands a court martial, then that is the venue for determining the captains guilt or otherwise.

Being totally non-naval, I don't know how the system works in practice, but trying to look at it logically from the outside there seem to be two possible ways of working.
1. The captain is in charge regardless of the rank of who else is on board. (This is the system that operates on Tickety Boo ie I am in charge even when SWMBO is on board, and she's given me permission to say that.) In this case the captain is responsible for running aground, regardless of what the bigwigs were saying.
2. Rank always takes precedence. In that case, if senior ranks told the captain to take his ship too close to shore, they are responsible.

Your proposition 2 is invalid. At sea there are 2 qualities of rank, Sea rank and military rank and at all times on a ship sea rank is paramount. The most senior sea rank on any ship is the commanding officer. Even Nelson could not over rule Hardy in handling the Victory, though if Nelson had persisted he would have had to endorse the ships log to absolve Hardy.

Simple system when you understand it and yes the buck stops with the captain, thats life in a blue suit as they say.