Assymetric for Arc+

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

I will be crewing on a boat taking part in the ARC+ (i.e. via Cape Verde). It's a Beneteau Oceanis 41.1.
The skipper/owner has asked me to research the best kind of assymetric sail(s) to add to the sail wardrobe. The choice is obviously between running and reaching sails, in heavy or light wind options. I have formulated my own ideas, provisionally, but would like to know if any of you wise souls can give your recommendations.......

 

[TLouth7]

Would this be to complement an existing symmetric? Or does the current wardrobe only include white sails?

 

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

Would this be to complement an existing symmetric? Or does the current wardrobe only include white sails?

White sails only....brand new boat.

 

[RupertW]

I love an asymmetric for coastal sailing but am looking for a better downwind option for the Atlantic crossing next year as so much of it in my experience is downwind rather than reaching and every degree away from downwind adds miles to the trip as you gybe every couple of days on either side of the course. After a variable number of degrees the extra speed you get no longer compensates for the extra distance.

So still trying to decide what downwind option is cheap but most flexible for almost downwind sailing.

 

[matt1]

Have done the Canaries - Barbados on an Oceanis many years ago and personally would favour just getting a 2nd headsail and ideally a 2nd pole. Much more practical and tolerant of angles, will likely get far more use (and therefore advantage) out of it and will reduce substantially the wear on the mainsail. Probably less expensive too?

 

[RupertW]

Have done the Canaries - Barbados on an Oceanis many years ago and personally would favour just getting a 2nd headsail and ideally a 2nd pole. Much more practical and tolerant of angles, will likely get far more use (and therefore advantage) out of it and will reduce substantially the wear on the mainsail. Probably less expensive too?

This is my current preferred option though not so good in very light winds. I am still really kicking myself for throwing out the baggy but perfectly functional big overlapping genoa that came with the boat as I replaced it with a nice blade. Using A spinnaker pole on one side and boom as the pole on the the other would work well with mainsail dropped.

So now I will have to scout around Sunsail and other charterers for a second hand old genoa to replace the perfect old one I threw away. But I'm holding on for a suggestion of something equally stable and simple but fancier so I can have the fun of specifying another new sail.

 

[Tranona]

Have a look at the Elvestrom twin headsail on a torque rope system. Specifically designed for what you are going to do. alternatively as suggested a second headsail flown either on the foil if twin groove or flying free.

Not sure an asymmetric will be much good as not effective at +/- 20 degrees of downwind.

 

[macd]

Have done the Canaries - Barbados on an Oceanis many years ago and personally would favour just getting a 2nd headsail and ideally a 2nd pole. Much more practical and tolerant of angles, will likely get far more use (and therefore advantage) out of it and will reduce substantially the wear on the mainsail. Probably less expensive too?

Also easier to de-power/reduce sail in squalls, which are highly likely, particularly at night. Especially comforting if there's just one on watch.
My experience of Cape-Verdes to Antilles (Martinique) was wind over the right shoulder 90% of the time.

 

[dunedin]

So now I will have to scout around Sunsail and other charterers for a second hand old genoa to replace the perfect old one I threw away.

Masses of good second hand sails available for reasonable prices. If you know your rough sizes look on the used sail sites.

We bought a “winter jib” last year, to replace the good jib during the winter months. Good buy.

 

[stephen_h]

Have a look at the Parasail
Not used one but seen them and have heard good reports. Not cheap mind !

 

[[3889]]

+1 for 2nd headsail + pole. Far easier to control and you have a spare jib. On my NARC+, wind on the stern, we used a 200m assym but started dropping it at night after two bad wraps, so half of the time we were on un-poled white sails with much flogging and gnashing of teeth.

 

[lw395]

If the boat is fully equipped with pole and blocks etc for a symmetric kite, and there will be three or more people, I would get the biggest, secondhand symmetric kite that you can set. Without the pole and gear, I'd get a big, full, starcut asymetric, well designed for sailing deep angles.
Any fool can be blown along down wind in a fair breeze. The biggest gains to be made with one extra sail IMHO are going close to downwind in lighter airs.

Next priority might be a smaller, heavier flatter sail to keep best speed in medium winds.
Once there is plenty of wind, poling out a second genoa becomes a good option. This is also a good option if you want to run minimum watches, overnight, if you're unsure of the weather etc etc.

 

[KellysEye]

We used a twin headsail Twistle rig with free flying poles connected by a SS fitting that had a hinge in the middle pole, then rods to connectors at each end, which were flanges with a metal bar across. The 3 reasons for it is free flying cuts the rolling because the poles don't push against the mast which pushes back. The second reason is you can furl it to any size if the wind picks up, many boats take their spinnakers down at night because of squalls. The third is If you overlap them you can sail upwind.

 

[Neil_Y]

Two headsails, a No1 and a No2 worked really well for us.

One off pole the other off boom end through snatch block, held out with preventer but main not hoisted.

I've done one trip fully crewed with symetrical kite pretty much all the way, with some hairy moments when 35-40knt squals come through at night with heavy rain. With twin headsails I could roll up both to half size in seconds. Seas can get quite steep in short squals and broaching at night with the risk of breaking stuff just doesn't make sense.

The other thing is why be in a hurry? once you arrive you'll wish it had lasted longer.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Another vote for the Parasail or Parasailor.

http://www.istec.ag/us/products/parasailor.html

 

[Allan]

Has anyone used two headsails in a foil with two grooves?
Allan

 

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

If the boat is fully equipped with pole and blocks etc for a symmetric kite, and there will be three or more people, I would get the biggest, secondhand symmetric kite that you can set. Without the pole and gear, I'd get a big, full, starcut asymetric, well designed for sailing deep angles.
Any fool can be blown along down wind in a fair breeze. The biggest gains to be made with one extra sail IMHO are going close to downwind in lighter airs.

Next priority might be a smaller, heavier flatter sail to keep best speed in medium winds.
Once there is plenty of wind, poling out a second genoa becomes a good option. This is also a good option if you want to run minimum watches, overnight, if you're unsure of the weather etc etc.

Watches will be 4hr-on 4hr-off, two women+two men. I would consider that to be minimal, so a big spinny would be out, I'm afraid. At this point we are tending towards Doyle Sails Heavy Air Runner, (or similar), which is made to handle winds of 10-25kt at angles of 115-165deg, these being precisely the parameters expected on this particular passage, with a top-down furler for quick dowsing in squalls..

 

[Bajansailor]

Two headsails, a No1 and a No2 worked really well for us.

One off pole the other off boom end through snatch block, held out with preventer but main not hoisted.

I've done one trip fully crewed with symetrical kite pretty much all the way, with some hairy moments when 35-40knt squals come through at night with heavy rain. With twin headsails I could roll up both to half size in seconds. Seas can get quite steep in short squals and broaching at night with the risk of breaking stuff just doesn't make sense.

The other thing is why be in a hurry? once you arrive you'll wish it had lasted longer.

+1 to everything Neil mentions above.

Another option is what we did on another crossing where we gybed downwind the whole way from Tenerife to Antigua, sailing on 140 apparent pretty much the whole way. Took 18 days, we were going like a train, and virtually no rolling at all.
We had the yankee jib poled out to windward, genoa flying loose to leeward, main and mizzen (on a yawl).
If the wind was less than F 4 we would drop the headsails and fly a conventional spinnaker on the pole (but only in daylight hours).
We trashed the mizzen staysail one night in a real hooley squall that crept up unseen on my watch.

Only four of us on board, watches were 3 on, 6 off, one person on galley duty each day not doing watches, with the Aries wind vane steering most of the time.

 

[lw395]

Watches will be 4hr-on 4hr-off, two women+two men. I would consider that to be minimal, so a big spinny would be out, I'm afraid. At this point we are tending towards Doyle Sails Heavy Air Runner, (or similar), which is made to handle winds of 10-25kt at angles of 115-165deg, these being precisely the parameters expected on this particular passage, with a top-down furler for quick dowsing in squalls..

The dark art of weather forecasting is key.
You can research the stats for the passages you intend to make and plan for the most likely.
But how far to the edge of 'likely' should one plan for?
I think everyone plans for seeing a few days of strong wind.
But what about the possibility of hitting a significant period of very light wind?
(don't forget the return legs?)
Having some big nylon thing might make the difference between sailing and being caught between waiting for wind and running out of diesel.
You have to weigh up spending on sails vs 'possibly' spending on diesel.
A personal judgement.

 

[flaming]

Watches will be 4hr-on 4hr-off, two women+two men. I would consider that to be minimal, so a big spinny would be out, I'm afraid. At this point we are tending towards Doyle Sails Heavy Air Runner, (or similar), which is made to handle winds of 10-25kt at angles of 115-165deg, these being precisely the parameters expected on this particular passage, with a top-down furler for quick dowsing in squalls..

Your problem will be that you won't get anywhere near 165... A-Sails can be driven that deep, but it's not easy, and requires concentration from the driver and being actively trimmed. In cruising Autopilot and cleated sheet mode I think 150 might be achievable, but you might not even manage that in an ocean swell without risking a big wrap.

So that's a gybing angle of 60 degrees, and given the type of boat probably not a large speed increase over polling out the genoa and going DDW.

If you don't want a Symmetric kite, then I'd look for an A-sail to help at the margins, when the wind isn't right behind you, or is light.