ASA vs RYA

[mrplastic]

Hi People!

I am off to St Maarten in June and would like to use the time and location to learn to sail (I'm a novice motorboater). However they teach to ASA out there and I wondered if anyone can offer advice as to it's compatibility and standard when compared to our own RYA certs.

Are ASA certs accepted in the UK? or will I still have to take the RYA certs on my way to achieving Yachtmaster?

As always, my thanks in advance

CLP

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[peterb]

The only pieces of paper you have to have before taking your Yachtmaster exam are a radio qualification (usually the Short Range Certificate) and a first aid certificate.

Many people taking Yachtmaster have climbed the ladder of Competent Crew, Day Skipper and Coastal Skipper before taking the exam, but these are not compulsory. So you could take your ASA courses as being part of the training and experience you'll need for Yachtmaster; what the courses are actually called won't matter.

Perhaps more interesting is whether the RYA would issue an ICC on the basis of ASA qualifications.

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[alant]

You don't NEED any certification as a leisure 'sailor/boater' in the UK!
Unless you intend chartering or sailing as a pro, it really doesn't matter which 'regulatory' system you learn under if the tuition is good, unless bits of paper matter to you personally (like collecting badges).
Just learn & gain experience, then if you want to, get some quals.
Some of my best sailing mates have no quals, but I would sail anywhere with them & trust their judgement. Other people I have met, fully qualified, I wouldn't send a seagull out with.

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[jeanne]

I spent a while in St. Maarten, and the most important thing is to do whatever it is very soon, before you forget why you are there. Enjoy!

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[Twister_Ken]

ASA = Amateur Swimming Association? nmn

`

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[mrplastic]

Nothin to do with collecting 'badges'. More about being able to take my own boat to Europe or maybe the Algarve and down to the Med. For that I need a 'badge' AKA C.O.C. So will ASA be able to provide that kind of certification or at the very least will I be able to 'cash them in' for a COC in the UK?



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[tjfmmaes]

Hi,

My wife and I both hold ASA 101 and 103 certificates (keelboat sailing skills and basic coastal cruising), gained on a holiday in the US, which I found a very rewarding experience. My wife hadn't had a lot of sailing experience and now handles a boat confidently with me doing the running around ropy thingy (it went all wrong somewhere..). I asked the RYA whether they would take this certification as a basis for issuing the ICC and the reply was (copied from their email):
========================
Many thanks for your email. Sorry for the delay in responding.

I am afraid that we do not recognise other countries qualifications as
eligible for the ICC. You can find information on the ICC on our website
Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs) on the link below.

http://www.rya.org.uk/Cruising/faqs.asp?faqCategory=1020414

Your options are to do an RYA Dayskipper practical qualification, which is
eligible for the ICC or just arrange an ICC test.

Please don't hesitate to contact me if I can be of any further assistance.

Regards

Sophie Povah
Cruising Officer
RYA

I will try and get an answer out of the ASA whether they issues ICCs at all and post the result here.

Thomas

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[mrplastic]

Thomas, thank you very much! That is precisely the kind of reply I'd been hoping for, lots of information and a few hard facts!! It appears that you have done exactly what we plan to do! I'll keep an eye out for your post, alternatively you can e-mail me at clp@techplas.co.uk.

Cheers!

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[tjfmmaes]

After a bit of digging I found the following text. The interesting bit is that an ICC must be issued by an organisation in the country of residence i.e. the UK for me = RYA. Given that the RYA do not accept foreign qualifications (a bit strange for an "international" certificate perhaps?), this would suggest that there is no recourse but take the competency assessment test at an RYA certified (of course) centre.It does seem a bit strange as the qualifications required for an ASA 103 are far more stringent than those described in the ICC application form, issued by a prominent organisation such as the American Sailing Association.

Hope this helps.

Thomas

===========================
http://www.sailing.org/page.asp?PageID=j//Fhy?1&MenuID=zp~rGMnon~824QM6/`xAM4Y1TU0d6YZUhpaJMMeCOWYjHex`YQekPbjlwV9VW4u`amn0

Posted on: 24 February 2003

In October 1998 at the UN Economic Commission for Europe Resolution number 40, 'International Certificate for Operators of Pleasure Craft', was adopted. The ICC can be issued only after competence in boat handling, navigation and knowledge of the collision regulations has been proved by test or previous equivalent qualification.

The CEVNI test must be taken if the inland waters endorsement is required. CEVNI stands for Code Européen des Voies de la Navigation Intérieure, which loosely means the Rules, or Collision Regulations, for the European Inland Waterways.

The ICC can only be issued by the Marine Administration of the applicant's state or place of permanent residence or by an organisation appointed by that Administration. For example, a British citizen or resident must be tested by an organisation approved by the British Government.

Generally, an ICC is required when navigating the inland waterways of Europe; the main notable exception is The Netherlands. In Holland an ICC is only required by vessels that are either longer than 15 metres and/or capable of more than 20 kph (~ 11 knots). If cruising to Europe to explore the canals and rivers, both categories 'coastal' and 'inland' will be required and so the CEVNI test, as well as proof of general boat handling competence, is needed.

It should also be noted that most European countries insist that vessels navigating their inland waters carry a copy of the relevant local rules.
For coastal areas in Northern Europe and Scandinavia, the ICC is generally not required. There are exceptions in Southern Europe.

The full text of the International Certificate for Operators of Pleasure Craft can be found by clicking here

Further information can be found on the website

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[mrplastic]

Thankyou for that Thomas. It does seem very strange that the UK government will not allow COC certification to be issued against ASA certs. Even more amazing when you consider the 'special' relationship we are supposed to have with America.

One can only conclude that the RYA must need the cash!



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[jamesjermain]

This is a bit tough on the RYA who are 'only obeying orders' from the EU and the British Government. Of course they are delighted to take our money and are not protesting too hard at having to do so.
My limited knowledge of the ASA 103 is that it excedes the ICC by a fair margin but it not as stringent as the RYA Coastal Skipper.


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[mrplastic]

That of course may be the case, however do lots of Americans who decide to visit Europe with their ASA COC cause diasters, get lost at sea, crash or otherwise show incompetence above and beyond a Brit with a UK COC? I doubt it very much. So, I believe we can safely make the assumption that the ASA training programme is on par with RYA, albeit less inclusive overall. It seems that whatever the legislation we have here it seems to discriminate against 'Foreign' certification and is possibly outdated and maybe due for a review.



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[tjfmmaes]

Re: ASA vs RYA -

I just had a reply from the RYA on my question - very quick work indeed. Text copied below. No resolution, but at least progress/communication -

===============

Thomas

You are welcome to put your points to James Stevens, RYA Training Manager,
and he can review your case as to whether or not you are eligible for the
ICC.

You can contact James on james.stevens@rya.org.uk or tel: 0845 345 0384.

==================================

As far as the RYA doing its duty, this is true - the ICC directive states "upon presentation of an official national certificate of competence its holder can ...obtain an international certificate of the country that has issued the national certificate without having to pass another examination"

This would mean that the ASA could issue an ICC.... however, earlier text in the directive states: "Recommends the issue, on request and if requirements ...are satisfied of an international certificate concerning the competence of operators of pleasure craft issued to its nationals or residents who are operators of pleasure craft bound for the waters of foreign countries by the compentent authority or by bodies appointed by Governments"

This kind of closes the door on that i.e. the RYA can't issue an ICC because it is not a UK qualification and the ASA can't issue one because you're not a national or a resident - at least that is my reading of this. In my humble opinion, this makes this directive kind of flawed i.e. a directive governing the creation of an internationally accepted certificate forbids the acceptance of national certificates by foreign countries as proof of competency for its nationals or residents and forbids a national organisation to issue an international certificate if the recipient is not a national or resident - confused? I am.

We'll see how this goes....

Thomas


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[jamesjermain]

I don't for a moment doubt that Americans who manage to cross the Atlantic, are at least as good sailors as Brits, but I don't think this is, per se, due to their having passed ASA 103 - just as I do not believe that holding an RYA Yachtmaster Cerificate is a prerequisite for a Brit being a good yachtsman.

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[mrplastic]

James, you missed my point, which was all visitors to foreign shores from wherever they originate must have it seems some form of COC. Competence seems to be is the issue here and we as Brits don't have a monopoly on it. So does it really matter what the language is. After all, our British Driving Licence allows us to drive pretty much anywhere in the world, I assume from the amount of Americans that live on the airforce bases in the UK, their driving licences are accepted in the UK. And I'm pretty certain that the UK driving test is pretty stringent too, so what is the difference? Driving in the UK is potentially far more dangerous to my mind than sailing around Europe. I guess the statistics would support that too. So if we can accept 'foreign' driving licences why not 'foreign' certs?

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[sailbadthesinner]

Re: Dunno about ASA but June

Is St Martin in path of the Hurricane belt?
I know official season in those parts affected starts June altho really July to October are real risk times.
just a thought you may want to check the weather at very least as you may not be able to get out too much.
i know antigua which aint very far away can have hurricanes

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[jamesjermain]

No. I didn't miss the point.

As it happens, foreigners don't need any certificate of competence to sail in European coastal waters under International Maritime Law, unless this is required by the laws of their own country - which is the case of the UK is not.

The point I was making was simpy that certificates of whatever sort, do not of themselves make good seamen but that I would be quite happy to believe the competence of a US skipper who had made it across The Pond in safety.


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[mrplastic]

Re: Dunno about ASA but June

Yes, I believe it is, so I thought it would be good practice ;-) after all we are talking American certs here, so a hurricane is only a stiff breeze really!


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[mrplastic]

No. I didn't miss the point.

Well I guess if that's true then what is the point of attaining a COC in the first place? I was under the impression that a COC was required if I wished to visit Europe by boat. Just sailing around the European coast without actually landing is not what I want to do, so I guess I do need a COC, unless of course you can advise me otherwise.

Whilst I understand you point completely (and up to a point I agree with you), however if someone has gone to the lengths required to attain certificates that would suggest that:-

1). They take boating seriously
2). They have gained some experience from a qualified and knowledgeable person.

3). They may just badges!

In my book, somebody who has taken a hobby seriously enough to spend what can be a great deal of money on attaining a standard that the law doesn't even require is worthy of some respect. I have only been boating for a year or so and I have come across plenty of people who have no idea what they are doing or any intention of taking tuition, alongside that I have also met many people who have extremely good knowledge of their craft and no qualifications at all.

The trouble is how do I as a willing novice tell the ballshi&%£r from the seadog. Knowing that person is suitably qualified to offer advice helps with that decision.






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[tjfmmaes]

Re: ASA vs RYA - The ASA has replied

I just received this e-mail from the ASA - which I will forward to the RYA for their point of view:

The International Certificate of Competence is issued and coordinated
through the Royal Yachting Association. While the ASA credentials you hold
cover all of the topics that are required for the ICC, ASA is not the
issuing body. From my experience, some countries that subscribe to the ICC
convention accept ASA credentials in place of the certificate while others
will accept nothing but the ICC. I have heard that some students have
managed to gain reciprocity for ASA certifications by petitioning the RYA,
though I have not received any confirmation on the exact procedure. The best
course of action is to contact the country you will be visiting, ask them
what is required to charter a vessel, and determine if the ASA credentials
will be recognized.

Best Regards,

Jeff Stack

--
Jeff Stack
Education Coordinator
js@american-sailing.com


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