Argh............ Batteries not Charging

[lustyd]

P.S. Should you really be the skipper of a boat if you don't even have a basic understanding of your boats essential electrical systems? Unless of course you have an engineer/electrician on crew. Genuine question, no implied answer.

I don't see why every skipper would need to understand everything about their boat, as long as the boat is well maintained. Some of us make a hobby of boat maintenance and learning while others just want to enjoy time on the water. Plenty of people don't have a clue how to change a car tyre, and more still don't have a spare in the car in the first place.
And no, not everyone is able to confidently map out and diagram an electrical system for various reasons. First and foremost would be that it's genuinely dangerous for people with no knowledge to go poking around in electrical wiring and around batteries.

For me, I'm impressed with anyone willing to admit they don't know the answer

 

[Alex_Blackwood]

I don't see why every skipper would need to understand everything about their boat, as long as the boat is well maintained. Some of us make a hobby of boat maintenance and learning while others just want to enjoy time on the water. Plenty of people don't have a clue how to change a car tyre, and more still don't have a spare in the car in the first place.
And no, not everyone is able to confidently map out and diagram an electrical system for various reasons. First and foremost would be that it's genuinely dangerous for people with no knowledge to go poking around in electrical wiring and around batteries.

For me, I'm impressed with anyone willing to admit they don't know the answer

Fully concur with that statement. However, there is a big difference between a car and a boat. Being stuck at the roadside waiting for assistance is a tad different from being stuck on a lea shore in bad weather and you don't know anything about your engine, which won't start! Similarly with electrics, you don't have to know how they work but you should know what it does what and where it is. You may not know how a diode works but if you know that it will only pass current in one direction you have a start. If you actually know where it is fitted you are one step further on.

 

[lustyd]

being stuck on a lea shore in bad weather

Not everyone is at risk of being in that situation. Quite a lot of people only go out in good weather in local protected waters.

Not everyone is reliant on their engine either, some people spend the time learning how to sail their boat instead of maintaining the auxiliary systems For me, I learned the maintenance!

 

[pmagowan]

I think the risk in a car is the speed. In a boat it is the fact that you are in an environment that is hostile to human life and subject to unpredictable changes. I left the question open, with regard to essential systems. Some people might consider an auxiliary engine an essential bit of safety equipment others not. Fire is a major problem on a boat and for that reason alone I would want to have a basic understanding of my engine and electrical system. In this example we are really talking about the very basics of what is connected to what prior to the distribution panel.
How many people think it is within tolerable safety limits to set to sea without a basic understanding of how your engine is electrically attached to your batteries? Would you want to be a (non-nautical) guest on a boat where the captain doesn't understand that? Is this an acceptable blind spot if the skipper has an excellent knowledge of everything else related to the boats safety systems or is this likely an indication of wider understanding?
I am pretty laid back about things so would probably not worry too much unless my children were on board in which case I would not let them set to sea if I felt the skipper was lacking in the "basics".

Not everyone is at risk of being in that situation. Quite a lot of people only go out in good weather in local protected waters.

That sounds like the preamble on 'Saving lives at Sea'! I went out in good weather and local protected waters...I thought everything would be fine...What are tides?...

 

[Alex_Blackwood]

Not everyone is at risk of being in that situation. Quite a lot of people only go out in good weather in local protected waters.

Not everyone is reliant on their engine either, some people spend the time learning how to sail their boat instead of maintaining the auxiliary systems For me, I learned the maintenance!

Until they need it! Just saying that in my experience a knowledge of how things work on your craft can be a life saver. Some very large vessels have been lost at sea due to lack of knowledge in the crew. doesn't just apply to small boats. However, Not going to argue over it!

 

[lustyd]

How many people think it is within tolerable safety limits to set to sea without a basic understanding of how your engine is electrically attached to your batteries?

If the install is professionally done and professionally maintained I don't see a problem.

Until they need it! Just saying that in my experience a knowledge of how things work on your craft can be a life saver.

If your engine is the only thing between you and death you've already taken multiple wrong turns as a skipper, or you're doing exceptionally adventurous sailing. For most people on a day trip in good weather and local waters this is simply not an issue. There are boats in Portsmouth Harbour that never get further out than Ballast. Other people have different needs and therefore can use a different approach. You make your decisions, and they make theirs.

 

[pmagowan]

If the install is professionally done and professionally maintained I don't see a problem.

So you are happy that the person who installed the system knows how it works but if the skipper anchors in a nice little bay and drains all the batteries so as not to be able to start the engine for a safe exit that would be ok? It's a sailing boat, maybe they should just sail out, the lee shore and strong winds that came up overnight are fine for this skipper just not electrical or mechanical systems? No reservations? Happy for your kids to be on that boat? We all accept different levels of risk, i'm just wondering what other peoples are set at.

Personally I still think we need a basic understanding and in this OP a simple schematic.

 

[srm]

Where has this "Emergency" designation for a 1/2/both switch come from? This is the first time in around 50 years that I have come across it.

The switch is simply part of the wiring for a two battery wiring system and on a number of boats I have sailed put to the "both" position when the engine is running to charge both banks, then turned to the house side when engine not in use to isolate the engine start batt.

 

[lustyd]

So you are happy that the person who installed the system knows how it works but if the skipper anchors in a nice little bay and drains all the batteries so as not to be able to start the engine for a safe exit that would be ok?

Yes. Perhaps they could call Seastart.

You're imagining all kinds of worst case scenarios to justify your position and perspective. As I said, people have differing requirements based on their own usage, the way you choose to use your boat is your own business. Suggesting everyone must do the same just because you imagined a scenario they will never be in isn't helpful.

 

[lustyd]

Where has this "Emergency" designation for a 1/2/both switch come from?

Probably the change from 12BO switches to separate switches. With modern systems you switch on the house, you switch on the engine, and optionally join them for emergency starting so it's a different setup to 12BO because there are two distinct installations

 

[Alex_Blackwood]

If the install is professionally done and professionally maintained I don't see a problem.

If your engine is the only thing between you and death you've already taken multiple wrong turns as a skipper, or you're doing exceptionally adventurous sailing. For most people on a day trip in good weather and local waters this is simply not an issue. There are boats in Portsmouth Harbour that never get further out than Ballast. Other people have different needs and therefore can use a different approach. You make your decisions, and they make theirs.

This conversation is going round in circles. I will conclude my end by saying that experience dictates how you think. I can only assume that that you have never been in a situation where decisive action is required and time to think is not available. Then knowledge of your systems, whatever they may be, sail, mechanical, electrical or what ever is critical. There are people like yourself who have taken an interest in their systems and the maintenance thereof. There are also other people, and I know some, who, although competent sailors are completely ignorant of their boat. In some 60 years messing about in boats, of various sizes. The moto I was taught as youngster is "Know your ship"
PS.
Consider a nice calm summers day in Portsmouth harbour and you have an emergency with a system. I think you may want to know how to shut down/isolate that system. No?

 

[pmagowan]

Yes. Perhaps they could call Seastart.

You're imagining all kinds of worst case scenarios to justify your position and perspective. As I said, people have differing requirements based on their own usage, the way you choose to use your boat is your own business. Suggesting everyone must do the same just because you imagined a scenario they will never be in isn't helpful.

I'm not suggesting anything of the sort. I am asking a question of where other people consider the line. I don't consider the scenario above worst case. I consider it every day occurrence. I personally do not have such a rosy view of the weather and the sea to think that one can never get caught out. The conditions being significantly different in the morning than the night before seems like an everyday sort of occurrence in the UK.
You didn't answer my question. Would you be happy for your kids to be on a boat where the skipper lacks a basic understanding of its electrical and mechanical systems? I suspect the risk is very small and perhaps where-ever this imaginary boat is there will be a rescue service close at hand but the question still stands.

 

[srm]

Probably the change from 12BO switches to separate switches. With modern systems you switch on the house, you switch on the engine, and optionally join them for emergency starting so it's a different setup to 12BO because there are two distinct installations

Thanks,
Ah yes, modern systems - designed to reduce the need to think but increase the probability of something going wrong.

 

[pmagowan]

Thanks,
Ah yes, modern systems - designed to reduce the need to think but increase the probability of something going wrong.

The modern switch cluster designs really are robust and less confusing than the 1/2/b/0 switches which seem to cause problems for lots of people. Remember, the human brain is often the weak link. Fit a switch cluster with a VSR and you generally don't have to think at all and it is likely to get things done correctly much more often than the average hominid.

P.S. You can rewire them from their standard wiring: engine on, house on, engine and house combined
to engine on, house on, engine house combined, engine to house, house to engine. This allows you to isolate a bad bank and use the other bank without combining for house or engine start as required.

 

[lustyd]

I can only assume that that you have never been in a situation where decisive action is required and time to think is not available.

You'd be dead wrong there, I've been in several such situations. I do, however, have the experience to know that the vast majority never get close to such situations and that other people have more basic usage of boats than myself. It's just a hobby for most people and it doesn't need to be taken anywhere near as seriously as you suggest for the vast majority. If it did, we'd certainly have minimum qualification levels in this country.

Then knowledge of your systems, whatever they may be, sail, mechanical, electrical or what ever is critical

I disagree, good skippers go to sea in unfamiliar boats all the time. It's all about attitude when push comes to shove, and ability to think on your feet. Fixing the immediate problem isn't always the best or quickest route to success and sometimes it's better to set the battery issue aside while you save the boat then come back to it later. Either way, the majority of boaters don't get into such situations and the worst that happens to them is an embarrassing stay on Bramble Bank as they cut the corner.

 

[Kwik Decision]

Pre to getting somebody in who actually knows what they are doing.

Both Leisure and Engine Start batteries being charged from Sterling Shore Power unit and Generator, but when underway, alternators only appear to be charging the engine batteries not the leisure.
Multimeter assures that alternators both are putting out loads of volts .
Presume there is lurking somewhere in the engine bay a box hiding "a something" that should be charging both/either Engine or Leisure depending on which set need charging.
Assuming the problem is after the three master switches for engine/house batteries and emergency.

What am one looking for and where , there are a couple of substantial mysterious water proof boxes in there with hefty cables entering but no markings on the outside.
Surely not as simple as fuse in the leisure battery charging line.
Comments welcome.

Back to the OP's question. I note his boat has two alternators, and in this case there is usually one for the engine battery and one for the domestics, keeping both circuits entirely separate, and eliminating the need for VSR. Given that both alternators are "putting out loads of volts" this suggests the wiring from the domestics alternator to the batteries has failed somewhere (dodgy connection, chaffed through, there may even be a fuse in there which has blown). When the emergency switch is on, I suspect it is simply the engine alternator charging both batteries.

 

[pmagowan]

Back to the OP's question. I note his boat has two alternators, and in this case there is usually one for the engine battery and one for the domestics, keeping both circuits entirely separate, and eliminating the need for VSR. Given that both alternators are "putting out loads of volts" this suggests the wiring from the domestics alternator to the batteries has failed somewhere (dodgy connection, chaffed through, there may even be a fuse in there which has blown). When the emergency switch is on, I suspect it is simply the engine alternator charging both batteries.

Does the alternator not normally die if a connection to the battery fails?

 

[Sandy]

Where has this "Emergency" designation for a 1/2/both switch come from? This is the first time in around 50 years that I have come across it.

The switch is simply part of the wiring for a two battery wiring system and on a number of boats I have sailed put to the "both" position when the engine is running to charge both banks, then turned to the house side when engine not in use to isolate the engine start batt.

Perhaps it is an On/Off switch that feeds two circuits, I have one like that and there is an 'emergency crossover' position where both power that would normally go down the engine battery circuits goes to both.

Like many I have a VSR between my engine and house bank.

 

[pmagowan]

View attachment 158792

BEP Switch Cluster and VSR​

Operation	Switch Positions	Effect
Normal On	House and Start On, EP Off	House and Start systems connected to their respective batteries independently. VSR will activate to parallel batteries for charging when engine running
Emergency Parallel	All switches on	Both batteries are joined in 1 bank
Start from House	Start Off, House On, EP On	Start battery will be isolated. House battery will power all systems
Power from Start	Start On, House Off, EP On	House battery will be isolated. Start battery will power all systems
All Off	All Off	Engine and all switched loads will be isolated. Charger and unswitched loads will remain powered

This is from an old post of mine on cluster wiring. I have not double checked everything and it may be updated since this iteration but shows the idea of altered wiring for more options.

 

[Kwik Decision]

Does the alternator not normally die if a connection to the battery fails?

That certainly used to be the case. I think modern alternators are more tolerant, but may be wrong.