Are skippers of modern designs better sailors?

[zefender]

A modern hull is, let's face it, twitchy, tippy and slammy. It doesn't like being over-canvassed and may under certain circumstances be prone to broach and gripe. If a skipper is caught beam on to the wind, then they're likely to be in trouble.

Traditional hulls, on the other hand, tend to be 'forgiving', less likely to be unbalanced, easier on the helm, sail through, rather than on top of, the water, are slower to move forwards and slower to move up and down too. A skipper has more time to adjust to changes.

Does this mean that skippers of light displacement boats need to have better sailing skills to work with their boat, rather than against it, need to interpret weather more accurately, read sea conditions and have a deep understanding of sail shape for the variety of conditions they are likely to be faced with? Do owners of heavier boats scoff at the sailability of light boats sinmply because they can't sail them?

....just wondered...

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[jimi]

Think if I were undertaking a serious passage then my first concern would be who I was sailing with, rather than what I was sailing.

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[Twister_Ken]

Indubitably (please send usual fee).

But they are crap at delegation.

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[bedouin]

Yes but safety isn't binary "yes or no" it is relative "more safe, less safe".

I would agree that to reach the same level of safety in a modern floating caravan would require more skill than in a traditional heavy design.

Now if were true that all boat/skipper combinations were equally safe, then that would imply that skippers of modern boats were on average better. However there are no grounds on which to make that assumption, so I prefer the conclusion that all other things being equal, modern boats are less safe than the more traditional designs

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[Aeolus_IV]

... this doesn't take into account the number of yacht sailors who started life sailing in dinghies - none of this "stability" thing where the boat will sit up-right practically regardless of what you do to it. Reefing, what reefing? Trim the sails to suite, and learn to control the rig and the dinghy. Now I do not wish to suggest that all dinghy sailor are better than yacht sailors - there are significant differences - and there are plenty of less skilled dinghy sailors. Just that what type of yacht you choose to sail is a reflection on what you want out of a boat, not on how skilled a sailor you are.

Yes, I know - bait taken. Jeff.


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[qsiv]

Whilst not differing in your conclusions, I would also like to suggest that decreased passage times can contribute to safety. Not long ago we had a a long sail back from Brittany - we averaged 7.5 knots. Years ago I doubt whether such a passage average would have been possible - and we beat the gale we were racing by two hours. Ok - so historically one wouldnt have known the gale was coming with such precision, but speed does give a safety advantage when it is used weisely.

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[bedouin]

Last time we came back from France we also averaged 7.5 knots, with 24.5 ft LWL - but that was in a full gale rather than being chased by one - and that was one that was not forecast at all.

I agree speed can help - but in practice the difference is not that great (maybe an hour or two on an average cross channel, less into the wind); but the corollary is that you need to pay much more attention to the forecast.

If you are not happy being out in F8 then you will miss some wonderful sailing in F6/7 just because there is a possibility of it strengthening.

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[qsiv]

Our 'dash' was done in winds of less than F5 all the way, over nearly 250 miles, so was good going. In 6 rising 7 and then some we managed a 220 mile day - good going for a fat, heavy cruising boat.

Where I would agree is that some modern, light boats are truly awful in grim conditions. I regularly heave to for a meal in foul weather, most light boats dont lend themselves to such an approach, and as a result crews tire and become ill (or more ill than they would otherwise be). I suspect that many 'incidents' in heavy weather are as much to do with crew fatigue and consequent errors of judgement, as they are simply about boats not coping with the conditions.

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[marki]

I sail a modern boat and can average 12 kts over the water downwind and 8kts upwind. Did 13.2 last autumn (Alderney to Yarmouth) in a F9 with a light crew. Modern boats appear in as many guises as traditional boats. Some heavy safe and similar to older traditional ones and sail beautifully. Some floating caravans where keels and masts are afterthoughts and sail awfully. And some narrow bow sections, deep keel, decent avs and high stix which sail fast and safely but can be wet and do prefer active helming particularly at speed. In wilder conditions offwind being able to surf means that a boat pushing it's hull speed remains controllable rather than beginning to gripe. On the wind modern deep keels and deep rudders keep driving and beat extremely well albeit they are very wet. Slamming is not such an issue as a heeled v hull presents a flat face to the waves and indeed long keels have a tendency to stall and the boat hobby horse.

Horses for courses really. That said I love old style boats and have huge respect for the people who sail them. Sometimes wonder why there is a kind of suspicion the other way around.

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[claymore]

The bravest post for some time

Congratulations.
Someone once explained to me that they had a Cat as it was capable of sailing 3 times faster than your average monohull so to have plenty of speed was a big safety factor as they could sail 45 miles in 3 hours and so keep out of the way of imminent weather warnings - nowhere being more than 45 miles away from anywhere in the Irish Sea.
30 years ago I used to think this about motorbikes - I still bear the scars.

Friends used to own a morecambe bay prawner and they were far better sailors than I could ever be. It had an offset propellor and a mind of its own. True - if it was happy with the direction you were asking it to travel in - it would do that very steadily all day long. It didn't seem to like being motored onto moorings, reversed out of marina berths or tacked in confined waters. No doubt about it - modern boats are far easier to sail.

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Claymore
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[Chris_Robb]

easy on the helm??

Or you could just change your boat?????

Seriously - in many respects you are right. Speed wise however you are wrong to say they are not as fast - ok they won't plane or surf however once the wind is up from close reaching to running they can turn some pretty good speeds in - and of course be totally controllable.

Easier on the Helm??? mine is - it has a balanced rudder - unusual in a long keel config. However - not sure that many old gaffers are easy. The only one I have sailed - the helm on a reach and close reach was so heavy - that frankly I wouldn't want to own such a boat. I noticed that T Cunliffes new boat Westerman - also needed a static line round the tiller to help hold it.

In other respects you are right - the trouble is that many skippers either don't have the aptitude - or haven't had the chance to get fully experienced - I'd rather be with a less experienced skipper - with the aptitude rather than one who has all the 'experiance' and no aptitude!

Manouvering of course - its the otherway round - modern boats are easy in comparison in a marina situation.

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[johndf]

It also depends on how cautious the skipper is. I stick to good forecasts in my Jeanneau, so I've not been at sea in more than a 6. Maybe traditional boat skippers tend to be less cautious so they get experience of heavy weather which I (touch GRP) don't expect to have to deal with.

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[marchhare]

Being an ex-dinghy sailor in one of the modern boats and as a first time "big" boat owner I don't know much different, so it seems normal to me to have to keep a ready eye on the sail trim etc. I have sailed on other boats of different sizes and types but not to the same extent or over a long periods of time to experience the various weather conditions. Had I not had the dinghy experience I may have had a very different view!

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[tcm]

Re: Unlikely

unfortunatel;y no - not if your argument is correct.

You argue a difficult awkward machine against a more expensive yet forgiving machine - that the expert will arise from the former. And it might.

Yet those with better skils from all walks of life equip themselves with the very best equipemt - carpenters, sportsmen, everyone. They choose the very best. And fairly soon. Generally, the mankly gear doesn't reveal the mastery - the super-sailor wd be wasting all his time putting the cups back in the linear galley instead of planning the next cunning tack.

Of course, prro skills could be flushed out from raw with kicking around an old ragety football or whatever , but soon enuf they will get the right kit. Otherwise, they wd still be kicking the manky ball at the wall, saying how it is much harder to curve a woolworths football than a wembly match ball. That Beckham, yerknow, tosspot, he used to play round here the wooftah. But can he play in bare feet? No he can't. You can't pretend to be the best if yer need poncy 300 quid boots...

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[Mirelle]

Yes, obviously.

Why else do we see them motoring everywhere all the time? It must be that their boats are too difficult to sail!

I can think of two quite sizeable boats, sailed just about every weekend, with no engine at all. One has never ahd an engine, and the other must be the only case of a boat designed as a motor sailer which has been sailed with no engine for some years. Both were designed by Albert Strange, who died in 1917.

Obviously, these boats are too easy to sail, and would bore the owner of an AWB silly.

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[Guest]

Old but still fast ....

My Pitch pine on oak boat in Tallinn - 1970's vintage - beat the pants of more modern boats in the Baltsail Regatta recently ........
In actual cross the line - we were physicaly second across the line and corrected time put us way ahead !!!



<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I only came - cos they said there was FREE Guinness !

 

[pugwash]

Better at some things...

Better at hanging on, better at reacting to a gust, better at reefing more quickly, better at putting up with the slamming, better at surviving those visissutudes traditional-boat sailors don't even have to think about -- all these things because they have to be. But "better" sailors? I don't think so. Begs the question: What is a "good sailor." One who completes a voyage safely, IMHO.

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