laika
Well-Known Member
As well as being a knot more than hull speed for your LWL that's rather fast for catching mackerel. What kind of fish do you normally catch? No point having a boat which shrugs off a near-hurricane if you've nothing to eat...
Are sailors with smaller boats better yachtsmen
- Thread starter Daydream believer
- Start date
As well as being a knot more than hull speed for your LWL that's rather fast for catching mackerel. What kind of fish do you normally catch? No point having a boat which shrugs off a near-hurricane if you've nothing to eat...
armchairsailor
Well-Known Member
Seajet's inadvertently pointed out another useful skill owners of little boats have to master - use of tide to enhance ones SOG....
Daydream believer
Well-Known Member
The fact that an Anderson competed in the mini transat demonstrates that it is an excellent sea boat if carefully sailed & i have no doubt that you could average 7 kts in the right conditions. One of our club boats is an Anderson sailed by an extremely experienced sailor & has numerous trips where such speeds are possible. But that is over many years & if you are honest Guernsey to Salcome for a sailor in a 22 ft boat is not the norm for most smaller boats & for some it is a highlight of their sailing taking weeks of careful planning ( all part of what can be a rich experience)Especially a bilge keeler. That being said westerley owners have done some amazing passages so it is not impossible
But how often do you get a 70 miler ( guessing distance) with everything going your way.
A head wind F6 is a different thing altogether on that trip
I might also guess your average trip length is much less than 70 miles
My round uk trip not counting Cally Canal was done in 25 hops
Most small boat sailors would have o do many times that number making the trip much harder
But every bit as enjoyable i might add!!
Oh & for the record my first cruise was at the age of 12 ( with a friend of the same age)in a 17ft 3ins silhouette so i do know a little about small boats. 7 knts would have been a daydream
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doug748
Well-Known Member
You are a rum currant, Seajet.
If I complete a passage bloody near airborne all I can manage is a 6kt average. What antifoul do you use?
Fantasie 19
Well-Known Member
+1
...with lower hull speed, and (generally) smaller engines, I'd say it was a key component for the small boat sailor, but not a mutually exclusive skill.... was reading some of the RTIR race reports and one owner in a 24 footer quoted 10 knots through Hurst narrows - way above quoted hull speed I'd have thought - and no engine involved......
Seajet
...
Now you are beginning to talk reasonably.
7 knots as an average cross Channel is pretty much a dream set of conditions for any yacht, this was before the days of Yacht Decca let alone SatNav & then GPS, so we couldn't believe what the trail log was saying until the clouds over Salcombe appeared, then land itself well ahead of schedule.
I'm glad to hear you have also been a youngster in small cruisers, despite the Robert Tucker designed in drag ( were you skipper and doing the navigating ? ) so you should know ' small ' boats, though as I try to put across they are by no means the same now as when you first experienced them !
PS, I have found in various boats that the old ' 1.4 X square root of waterline length ' rule is rubbish, and this does not involve planing.
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KellysEye
Well-Known Member
I don't think boat size matters it's experience: distance, all weather conditions and knowing how to fix breakages and having the right spares and tools.
Babylon
Well-Known Member
No. Moitessier's Joshua was about 40ft. Roger Taylor's MingMing is 23ft. Etc.
A more interesting question would be: are you better suited to a bigger boat or a smaller one?
A more interesting question would be: are you better suited to a bigger boat or a smaller one?
Daydream believer
Well-Known Member
I was skipper & navigated in the fog
I actually got 3rd prize in the Musto "magic of cruising" competition
For one of my cruises. Not bad for 12 years ( at the time of the cruise that is)old & out of sight of ones parents.
Re the comments about hull speed
Both my Stellas often got 8 kts for short distances with the kite up & that is well over the supposed hull speed
The Anderson was a mini transat boat & the current ones regularly reach 15 kts plus for quite long periods so that smashes the hull speed formulae with ease.
chinita
Well-Known Member
Not so much the size of the boat but the nature of the passage(s) which provides the challenge.
A few years ago I was talking to a chap in North Wales. He had just returned from the Bluewater RTW rally and was saying how apprehensive he was about sailing from Conwy to the IOM.
My 25ft MAB is long keel and draws 1.52m. In September I am planning to take her from the Orwell to Wisbech via Lowestoft and Blakeney. I shall be singlehanded and don't particularly want to do any night sailing. Working the tides, the shoals of the East coast, taking note of sunrise and sunset, making sure you arrive in daylight (no night entry to the North Norfolk harbours) and trying to work the tide to coincide with sunrise as well as contingency planning in the event of gear or engine failure and then arriving at the entrance to the Nene with enough water to cross the bar is proving to be quite a challenge.
Of course, all of this planning counts for nothing if the wind plays silly buggers.
I have singlehanded from the Algarve to the Solent on a 46ft steel deck saloon ketch and that was a lot easier. This trip though, is much more exciting.
I don't think I shall be a better sailor, just an older one!
A few years ago I was talking to a chap in North Wales. He had just returned from the Bluewater RTW rally and was saying how apprehensive he was about sailing from Conwy to the IOM.
My 25ft MAB is long keel and draws 1.52m. In September I am planning to take her from the Orwell to Wisbech via Lowestoft and Blakeney. I shall be singlehanded and don't particularly want to do any night sailing. Working the tides, the shoals of the East coast, taking note of sunrise and sunset, making sure you arrive in daylight (no night entry to the North Norfolk harbours) and trying to work the tide to coincide with sunrise as well as contingency planning in the event of gear or engine failure and then arriving at the entrance to the Nene with enough water to cross the bar is proving to be quite a challenge.
Of course, all of this planning counts for nothing if the wind plays silly buggers.
I have singlehanded from the Algarve to the Solent on a 46ft steel deck saloon ketch and that was a lot easier. This trip though, is much more exciting.
I don't think I shall be a better sailor, just an older one!
PhillM
Well-Known Member
Sailing a small boat makes me a better sailor. I can only afford a small boat so if I waited for a bigger one or relied on charter, i'd hardly ever go sailing .... so, having my small boat and sailing makes me a better sailor than being an amchair sailor waiting for the day I can afford a big boat.
nortada
Well-Known Member
An Invite To All Trolls
What a provocative thread!
Indeed, an open invitation to all trolls.
Why do I say this? Well I have 2 boats & a dinghy so where do I sit?
On this assertion, clearly I am a far better sailor when in the dinghy rather than in the truly off-shore boat.
When in the middle sized boat, I am a clearly an averagely competent/incompetent sailor.
Must be schizophrenic!
Oh forgot, I also drive a reasonably high powered safety rib so must be a power dork!
Truth is I am me & try to fit my performance to the circumstances, I find myself in. Normally, more to do with the weather than the size of the boat.
What a provocative thread!
Indeed, an open invitation to all trolls.
Why do I say this? Well I have 2 boats & a dinghy so where do I sit?
On this assertion, clearly I am a far better sailor when in the dinghy rather than in the truly off-shore boat.
When in the middle sized boat, I am a clearly an averagely competent/incompetent sailor.
Must be schizophrenic!
Oh forgot, I also drive a reasonably high powered safety rib so must be a power dork!
Truth is I am me & try to fit my performance to the circumstances, I find myself in. Normally, more to do with the weather than the size of the boat.
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dunedin
Well-Known Member
No. Many great sailors in all sized boats.
But a pratt in a small boat does a lot less damage than a richer pratt in a big boat.
But a pratt in a small boat does a lot less damage than a richer pratt in a big boat.
Brightwork
Well-Known Member
I'd have to say that it is simply the wrong way to phrase the question.
Had the question been put thus:
'Who make the better sailors on average - a) those who restrict themselves to one type / size or b) those who gain a wide range of experience over different sizes / types? then (Olympic specialists aside etc.) the answer for most people who be b) I guess.
I started off in freshwater dinghies, moved to tallships, and have since skippered / lived aboard power and sail up to and over 100' private plus many thousands of tons commercial.
Which takes the most skill? All of them, in different ways.
But to those who seem to be saying that sailing (restricting your sailing to) only small yachts (say less than 30') offshore makes you somehow a better sailor - I can only say that I am happy to jump onboard any reasonably seaworthy private vessel, whatever the size, with a 'crew who can do' (two is better) and cast off the lines - are you?
Our current boat is 33 tons - me & SWMBO often take her out double handed - close manouvering / breakdowns are sometimes more stressful than would be the case on a 22' - but motion and 'time to think' offshore are less stressful than a 22' - which one makes me a 'better sailor' - beggered if I know.
There is as much fun on a small boat for sure (what better buzz per £ than kite-surfing!) - but that doesn't mean that surfing down huge ocean rollers on a 20 metre (whatever) at night is not also a mega buzz.
Chill out about it - that is the No 1 best thing about boating - something for everyone - and nobody but nobody in the history of boating has ever known all there is to know!
Long may it last.
Had the question been put thus:
'Who make the better sailors on average - a) those who restrict themselves to one type / size or b) those who gain a wide range of experience over different sizes / types? then (Olympic specialists aside etc.) the answer for most people who be b) I guess.
I started off in freshwater dinghies, moved to tallships, and have since skippered / lived aboard power and sail up to and over 100' private plus many thousands of tons commercial.
Which takes the most skill? All of them, in different ways.
But to those who seem to be saying that sailing (restricting your sailing to) only small yachts (say less than 30') offshore makes you somehow a better sailor - I can only say that I am happy to jump onboard any reasonably seaworthy private vessel, whatever the size, with a 'crew who can do' (two is better) and cast off the lines - are you?
Our current boat is 33 tons - me & SWMBO often take her out double handed - close manouvering / breakdowns are sometimes more stressful than would be the case on a 22' - but motion and 'time to think' offshore are less stressful than a 22' - which one makes me a 'better sailor' - beggered if I know.
There is as much fun on a small boat for sure (what better buzz per £ than kite-surfing!) - but that doesn't mean that surfing down huge ocean rollers on a 20 metre (whatever) at night is not also a mega buzz.
Chill out about it - that is the No 1 best thing about boating - something for everyone - and nobody but nobody in the history of boating has ever known all there is to know!
Long may it last.
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Seajet
...
Doug,
it didn't feel particularly fast just ' purposeful ', let alone semi-airborne.
3 adults aboard, my then fiancee, a chum and self.
The antifouling was Micron, which as far as I know wasn't glowing in the style of the space shuttle on re-entry.
john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
How true that is!
I am not convinced by the argument by the OP and certainly not by the example given. How do you measure 'better' in better sailor? Perhaps the person lacked confidence enough to sail across the mouth of the Bristol Channel? There are lots of people who feel (falsely) a sense of comfort by being in sight of land.
In general I find myself getting anxious about the seamanship of smaller boat sailors at times because they get away with doing things that would be downright dangerous on larger more powerful and heavier boats.
Thus doesn't mean that people with big boats are automatically better sailors! Lack of skill and seamanship is seen in all sizes of craft with all means of propulsion.
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Seajet
...
John_Morris,
I know what you mean.
I have sailed dinghies - including all the trendy high performance jobs - and cruisers large and small since a boy and have done a lot of cross-Channel sailing as skipper, but when I spoofed BAe into funding my YM Offshore I met instructors Pete Misson & Mike Dymond; I quickly realised they were much better sailors than me !
Small boat does not mean novice, and larger boat does not mean ' experienced '...
I know what you mean.
I have sailed dinghies - including all the trendy high performance jobs - and cruisers large and small since a boy and have done a lot of cross-Channel sailing as skipper, but when I spoofed BAe into funding my YM Offshore I met instructors Pete Misson & Mike Dymond; I quickly realised they were much better sailors than me !
Small boat does not mean novice, and larger boat does not mean ' experienced '...
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laika
Well-Known Member
Hmm...and look what happened when he sailed it with Kinski. Maybe there's something in what Seajet is always saying about 40' boats with 2 people on board...
chinita
Well-Known Member
How do we know Moitessier was a good sailor?
Nobody ever saw him did they? It wasn't like he was marina hopping around the Med.
How many people have seen Moitessier cock up reversing on to a marina pontoon?
How many times has Moitessier motored off with his shoreline still connected?
How many times has he left his mobile phone on board after locking up the boat?
He was probably as bad as the rest of us.
Nobody ever saw him did they? It wasn't like he was marina hopping around the Med.
How many people have seen Moitessier cock up reversing on to a marina pontoon?
How many times has Moitessier motored off with his shoreline still connected?
How many times has he left his mobile phone on board after locking up the boat?
He was probably as bad as the rest of us.
