Are qualification needed?

petedg

petedg

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The more posts I read on the forum I have the impression that to own and sail a yacht of reasonable size ie. 10 to 12M does not require any formal sailing qualifications other than those required to use the radio. A couple of questions to you knowledgeable forumites:-
Am I right?
How does it affect the price of insurance cover eg. is it still possible to get full cover for loss of a boat?
Thanks in advance to all those who respond.
 
You're right

No certificates of competence / license required in UK.
Definitely possible ( even easy) to get fully comprehensive insurance that covers damage as well as loss. Some companies will give discounts for having yachtmaster ( the top qualifaction) but suspect that it's less than 20% discount.

The number of casualties is very low each year suggesting that the current approach of education not legislation is the right one. The belief is that even the lowest skippering qualification Day Skipper (aka dazed kipper) will be far higher standard than any that the government would agree to set. DS is a 5 day course costing several hundred pounds and I really can't see any government forcing people to spend hundreds of pounds on a required license if there is no problem to fix
 
There is no need in UK waters to hold a certificate. The only times one can come in handy are -

Some insurers give a discount for Yachtmasters

Charter companies generally want evidence of competence

You need some sort of ticket to skipper a boat for commercial purposes.
 
No qualifications needed.

However, If you cant complete the skills taught in Dayskipper you may be a liability to yourself and others. Well worth doing the course, or one of the higher levels if you have a fair bit of experience.

I did Yachtmaster with 30+ years of experience, and learned loads!!
 
How about sailing to France/Germany?

Thanks for the answers so far, just as I expected. But what if you want to sail outside British waters?
 
petedg said:
Thanks for the answers so far, just as I expected. But what if you want to sail outside British waters?
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For many countries you will need to prove your competence. A certificate from your own country will usually do the trick, as will an International Certificate of Competence (ICC). It's not often asked for . . . until you have an accident or incident. At that stage (if you don't have a certificate) you may be prevented from sailing until you have taken some local test of competence.
 
jimbaerselman said:
For many countries you will need to prove your competence. A certificate from your own country will usually do the trick, as will an International Certificate of Competence (ICC). It's not often asked for . . . until you have an accident or incident. At that stage (if you don't have a certificate) you may be prevented from sailing until you have taken some local test of competence.
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Jim, I really hesitate tob disagree with someone of your experience but on this occasion I do!

My understanding is that international agreements mean that each boat/ship is obliged to obey the laws and regulations of country to which she is registered/flagged. To have it other any way would mean that each vessel would have to comply with every regulation of every country it wanted to visit, which is a near impossible situation.

I cruise without an ICC or any certification of competence and have never been asked for it having visited the following countries
Sweden
Denmark
Germany
France
Ireland
Spain
Morocco
Italy
Tunisia

I am not saying that there won't come a time when some harbourmaster or official somewhere won't be familiar with international law and demand sight of certificate, but to the best of my knowledge there is not a legal requirement for the skipper of a British flagged vessel of 12m in length to have any certificate of competence.

That said I would be less than truthful if I said I hadn't considered the subject. I had been thinking of geting an ICC as a tick in a box in case I was ever asked. However Richard's earlier comment about learning a lot despite having 30 years experience is a "cap" potentially which fits me too. So having considered his comments I will probably switch my aim to Yachtmaster in the belief that it will do me good!
 
silver-fox said:
My understanding is that international agreements mean that each boat/ship is obliged to obey the laws and regulations of country to which she is registered/flagged. To have it other any way would mean that each vessel would have to comply with every regulation of every country it wanted to visit, which is a near impossible situation.
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I suggest you visit the RYA site and look at the section on Taking your Boat Abroad. once you have read that you will understand that there is not a simplistic answer, and hopefully you will understand the value of having an ICC - even if you have yet to be asked.

Although you have visited a number of countries, none of those specifically recognise the ICC, but may still ask you to have some evidence of competence. You are wrong about the recognition of the regulations of your country of registration. This only applies strictly speaking when you are visiting a coastal state either on passage or for "business", but if you are cruising in their territorial waters the state can ask you to comply with some or all of their regulations. So, for example, if you get to Croatia, you will not be allowed a cruising permit without a recognized qualification, or passing their local examination!

You will also find out that the "rules" governing passage of foreign vessels are established under a UN convention, as is the ICC. However, although the rules are pretty universally applied, partly because they are basically the same for all ships, the implementation of the ICC part of it is patchy.

However, the advice is that it is prudent to have an ICC, and compulsory if you want to enter the major European Inland Waterways. As noted above, you will definitely need it if you go to Croatia, and would be unwise not to have it when you visit Greece, particularly if you get involved in any incident where the Coastguard or Port Police take an interest.
 
I have done both the day skipper practical and theory,this also gave me a ICC.The way that i look at it is if you have an accident you are in a position to proof that you have an awareness and a level of competency for sailing your craft,this may give you the edge in a legal argument.

The course itself gives you the basic tools to do a bit of daylight coastal hopping,the instructor on my course also had me do a night navigation which was not part of the day skipper requirements but was a real confidence giver
 
Successful completion of the Day Skipper Practical (as opposed to theory) which will cost you approx £400 - £500, depending on when/where you do it, qualifies you for an ICC...
 
To qualify the qualification!!!

The aim of a Day Skipper practical course is to achieve the standard required to skipper a small cruising yacht safely by day in familiar waters.

As part of that course, Instructors are REQUIRED to ensure all studentsexperience at least 4 hours of night watchkeeping on 5 day courses.

Hope this helps to clarify some points.
 
jac said:
Depends where you go. ICC generally needed though
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You can't get an ICC without holding some some of RYA qualification (Day Skipper possibly)
I do wonder how long it will be before some government ( of whatever stripe) moves towards a compulsory qualification.

At present the UK situation does seem to be self policing , in that most responsible seagoing folk are interested in developing their skills and knowledge and can acquire both through experience -- which is the traditional way.

I believe that in the Netherlands there is some sort of minimum boat handling qualification required before taking on the skipper role. That might not be a bad thing -- something like the preliminary stage to the driving test in which you would have to learn basics like how to read a chart, identify buoyage and marks and have a knowledge of ColRegs.

The trouble is, that in the hands of a government department always keen to expand its remit, it wouldn't stop there.
 
Sorry, samwise, that is not correct.

You can take a test to qualify for an ICC with no RYA qualification at all.

Some RYA certificates enable that test to be waived on the grounds you have demonstrated sufficient knowledge to be awarded an ICC.
 
ICC information here:
http://www.rya.org.uk/infoadvice/boatingabroad/icc/Pages/icc.aspx#scope

If you want to use European inland waterways you need to take the Cevni test even if you have an RYA qualification to swap. My ICC gives four options:
Valid for:
Coastal waters - Yes
Inland waters - No
Power - Yes
Sail - Yes.

It is limited to pleasure craft not exceeding 24 metres.
On the back it says in 9 languages: The holder of this document has successfully passed the tests necessary to demonstrate his/her competence to operate pleasure craft.

I suppose this is a Europe thing - in all my travels in the USA and Caribbean I have never been asked for evidence of competence.
 
Salty John said:
I suppose this is a Europe thing - in all my travels in the USA and Caribbean I have never been asked for evidence of competence.
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No. It is nothing to do with the EU. As I pointed out above it is UN sponsored, although the idea originated in Europe, but from the Inland Waterways, not the EU.
 
Forgive me if times have changed, but I was under the impression that an ICC could be obtained either by joining the RYA, or you could apply for one by sending the RYA a form and £30.

In reality, the ICC is not a certificate of competence at all, merely a piece of paper designed to appease foreign jobsworths demanding to see some qualifications.

As far as I also understand, as long as the vessel is privately owned, not used in any commercial sense, and british flagged, then you need no qualifications to skipper it no matter how big. It's something that doesn't really need regulating, because not many people can afford to privately own their own oil tanker.
 
Salty John said:
I meant the need to show evidence of competence.
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Still no!

Read the RYA stuff which will tell you which countries have signed up to the UN Resolution and which countries ask for evidence, and in which situations. Some of the countries happen to be in the EU, but it is a coincidence!
 
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