Are paper charts still necessary and relevant?

Elessar said:
that's daft mapis. Of course i use planes.
You are arguing the redundancy point, and it's a little bit silly to suggest most boats have the redundancy that planes do.
But more than that it's wrong to say a plotter can do an accurate course to steer on a boat, unless you know better, if so please enlighten me.
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Daft? In a sense, I agree. In fact, it's even more daft suggesting that paper charts are essential... :D
Besides, redundancy was the key point the OP was making, as I understood.
And these days, it doesn't take a high degree of sophistication or expense to have a redundant navigation system completely independent from the whole boat electronics.
My notebook runs for up to 7 hours or so on battery. This means that even with the WHOLE boat electrical system completely disabled, I still have full redundancy for navigation. And yes, the engines would still be running, 'cause they are completely mechanic.
I think it's more silly to suggest that a jetliner could bring you back in one piece, if all of its electronic systems would be completely disabled.

And re. CTS, I struggle to enlighten you because I fail to understand what exactly you are doing on paper that the plotter can't handle.
Also because you already acknowledged that it's sufficient to use the track function and have the a/p driven by the plotter, hence not even bothering about the CTS at all.
You did mention also "for a short journey" though, which is the bit I don't understand.
Why wouldn't you do the same also with a multiple wp route, and/or for a 1000nm distant wp?
 
MapisM said:
After you'll tell me if you ever used airplanes.
Or if you'd rather die than use a pacemaker, if and when you should face the choice.
And so forth...
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Airliner is not a valid comparison MapisM. The routes are known and it's more like a ferry run than cruising. Airliner electronics are also several levels above a leisure boat's electronics in terms of resilience and redundancy and ground guidance is available at all major destinations and high traffic areas. In fact you'll get a visit from a chase a/c whether you want it or not if you start to deviate and/or can't be contacted at all.

Despite that nearly all the pilots I know keep an ICAO 1/2 mil map in the cockpit - it used to be law, I don't know if it still is.

For me the big argument for charts is simply that you can see a hell of a lot all at once. If you've got a 20" screen that might be less valid but even 12" screens I struggle to get a picture of the whole passage. That might just be me and my lack of experience at passage making but I know a lot of people who feel the same.
 
grumpy_o_g said:
Airliner is not a valid comparison MapisM...
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Yep, I'm well aware that a catastrophic electronic failure is much more unlikely on a plane than on a pleasure boat (thanks God), and there's ground control, etc.
Though I maintain that a simple notebook with its own GPS is a very affordable way to have a fully redundant nav system also on a small(ish) boat, as long as the boat has at least an enclosed p/house - I wouldn't suggest that for an open boat or a sailboat, of course.

And TBH, I also used to plan passages on large paper charts, for the very same reason which you mention in your last paragraph.
But eventually, the possibility to zoom in/out in real time, allowed by any PC with a decent processor, made me abandon paper also for planning.
No question that this is pretty much an each to their own matter, though. :)
 
On our way back home from the thames this year our plotter went down, no problem I thought & got back up hand held out of grab bag. Wouldn't get a fix, no problem I thought & got Nicky's I pad, got a fix in the wrong place !!!!!!
Ended up using paper & I phone as a double check. Did I also mention that we picked up a lump of finest thames rope so had to limp back, bobbing about like a cork. This is where Nicky found that low speed bobbing & map reading at the same time makes her seasick !!!!!
 
rubberduck said:
On our way back home from the thames this year our plotter went down, no problem I thought & got back up hand held out of grab bag. Wouldn't get a fix, no problem I thought & got Nicky's I pad, got a fix in the wrong place !!!!!!
Ended up using paper & I phone as a double check. Did I also mention that we picked up a lump of finest thames rope so had to limp back, bobbing about like a cork. This is where Nicky found that low speed bobbing & map reading at the same time makes her seasick !!!!!
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This is what aviators call having all the holes in the cheese line up; everything that could go wrong did go wrong, but having a piece of processed dead tree with ink on it helped you get home without disaster.
 
Will never happen to me of course.:)

Old chart in my plotter.New one ordered but fails to arrive on time.
Nice set of new charts on my Laptop courtesy of FindmyHarbour.
Have done this particular journey to Ramsgate several times so very familar with trip.
Having nothing to do one evening just for fun knock up a quick rough and ready course with bearings and pencil in track on chart.

Just out of Sheerness on a bright summer day run into fog.No problem as we tootle along on old chart in plotter and nice new charts in laptop.Watch the bouys appear out of the murk one by one.
Well inshore between sandbanks of estuary so no chance being run down by big commercial stuff,but not much water either side.
Just approaching bit of journey where two critical bouys(Copparas) have been shifted due to movement of sandbanks.
Laptop dies due to 12v power convertor having failed sometime earlier and battery dies.
Ooops.
Quick look at compass heading and hold course using old chart on plotter and using course on map modify heading to locate bouys.
Not exactly life threatening but sitting on sandbanks is very very boring and does give rise to a large amount of piss taking when your mates find out.:)
We did get laptop top going again by turning on invertor and supplying 240v and recharging using mains charger.
 
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Tender_aft said:
Having been navigating at night and lost our electronics in the Gibraltar straight a few months ago, I say that paper charts and preplanning on them is still necessary.
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  1. Lack of redundancy - no backup systems (GPS/Glonass)
  2. Don't fly civilan air transport if you don't trust electronics
  3. Paper v Electronic mediums is not the point - the need for navigation and planning is the point
It's not about chart medium, it's about navigation skills. Either you have the skills to navigate or you don't. It's not rocket science.
 
oldgit said:
We did get laptop top going again by turning on invertor and supplying 240v and recharging using mains charger.
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Does this mean that you don't have permanent charging to your laptop whilst underway, I know many on sailboats won't but on a Mobo with a constant supply of power it's pointless not to fit a charger.

Little Ship has triple redundancy

1 Dedicated navigation laptop permanently installed and connected to the chart plotter.
2 Ipad with full charts of Uk and a separate gps dongle
3 Same charts as the Ipad installed on the phone and can connect to the dongle and land based antennas.

Worst case I can come up with is they turn off the Gps then I would need to use the Ipad or phone as a paper chart.

Now...... How many of those who say we need paper charts have taken the time to swing the compass.

Tom.
 
It is important to have redundant systems, traditionally for mapping this was paper. A few years ago this was the only practical solution as electronic mapping software and hardware was expensive.

These days I have multiple electonic mapping systems many with there own battery supply, and they are multiplying rapidly. (It is prudent to keep one of these sources reasonably protected from a lightning strike)

The need for a paper chart backup is diminishing rapidly and for many well equipped boats the time has arrived when the the need for expensive paper charts has passed.

I miss regularly working on paper charts as it has a wonderful tactile feel that is not present with electronic mapping systems, but my saftey dollar can be spent more wisely these days and I doubt I will adding to my paper chart collection. I would not be unduly concerned if the existing charts were lost/damaged.
 
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Quote from LittleShip:-
Now...... How many of those who say we need paper charts have taken the time to swing[b/] the compass.

How many Know how to swing a compass.
Also is it still a requirement in law to keep a hard copy of your passage and log.
Would turning up in Court and handing over an Ipad or laptop as evidence of your passage be acceptable evidence.

When I was in the MN it was a requirement in law that a written up log of engine movements and a hard copy of the passage was maintained at all times and any incidents reported and entered in the log at the time they happened.
 
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Elessar said:
Completely pointless.
For a short journey, put a waypoint in the plotter and select track on the autopilot. CTS automatically calculated. That's all the app can do, you then have to type the answer it gives into the pilot and press auto instead.

Show me how the app works for a passage >1 hr.
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You've really gone up in my estimation - not that you were ever low - or that my estimation is worth a jot! There is no way that a plotter can provide a CTS for a passage over an hour. It's a basic maths issue. I wrestled with the idea of CTS tables to go with my planning tables and eventually decided that it was impossible to come up with a maths formula for every 15 minutes of the day even when you are specifying waypoint hopping from one to another. It has to be pencil and chart unless you don't give a toss about inefficiencies in the course steered or you go fast enough to make the tide irrelevant - both of which could apply of course.

For oldgit and anyone else in the Thames Estuary, please bear in mind that there is a FREE service on my web site of Southern East Coast notices to mariners. It is laid out in two ways - a weekly chronological list (for those of you who update your charts weekly :D) and by area - the latter being specifically for peeps with chartplotters so that they can look at the notices for the area they intend to cross and quickly review all the notices. These are not just copied from the UKHO notices but illustrated so you can quickly see what is relevant to you. Oldgit would have been able to see the correction at the East Last to which he referred for example together with a little chartlet illustrating the new buoyage - and that one in advance as I monitor all the harbour authorities and Trinity House (who often give advance notice). For example, the numerous changes being done next month to the buoyage in the Black Deep have been posted up for 6 weeks together with a handy downloadable pdf for printing and putting alongside your chartplotter! Chart changes may not be so relevant on the south coast but on the East Coast they are essential - the experience of a forumite a few years back provides the evidence - they carefully plotted a course across the sands with a charted depth of 3.7m at chart datum not knowing that that area had not been officially surveyed for umpteen years and what once was 3.7m was now drying 0.5m! For which reason, there are some chartlets of amateur surveys also included on the website.

Have a look here for the notices to mariners service (updated every Monday evening) http://www.crossingthethamesestuary.com/page9.html

Have a look here for the chartlets http://www.crossingthethamesestuary.com/page6.html
 
tillergirl said:
It has to be pencil and chart unless you don't give a toss about inefficiencies in the course steered or you go fast enough to make the tide irrelevant - both of which could apply of course.
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You don't need a paper chart.
A blank sheet of paper is quick and easy to do the vector sums.

Electronic plotters like OpenCPN will also do the calculations and will do them more accurately without some of the approximations and incorrect assumptions that are inherent in the simplified RYA method which can in certain (fortunately rare) cases can give answers that are significantly incorrect.
 
noelex said:
You don't need a paper chart.
A blank sheet of paper is quick and easy to do the vector sums.

Electronic plotters like OpenCPN will also do the calculations and will do them more accurately without some of the approximations and incorrect assumptions that are inherent in the simplified RYA method which can in certain (fortunately rare) cases can give answers that are significantly incorrect.
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I'd love to understand how it can do it! Any CTS is an approximation and based on assumptions.
 
tillergirl said:
I'd love to understand how it can do it! Any CTS is an approximation and based on assumptions.
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Yes that is correct. The currents etc are never going to be exactly as predicted.

However, even if the currents are exactly correct and there are no other sources of error the RYA method is an approximation. In other words it is not mathematically correct solution (except in certain rare conditions) even if the instructors seem to teach it as such.

In most circumstances the errors induced by using the RYA method are small, but in certain circumstances they can be significant.

Navigational programs can easily calculate a mathematically correct solution which eliminates one source of potential error.
There are also manual systems which eliminate most, or all the error inherent in the RYA system.
 
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noelex said:
Yes that is correct. The currents etc are never going to be exactly as predicted.

Navigational programs can easily calculate a mathematically correct solution which eliminates one source of potential error.
There are also manual systems which eliminate most, or all the error inherent in the RYA system.
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Really. I would love to understand how it's done? And that is not a challenge. What actually is the manual system?
 
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