LadyInBed
Well-Known Member
Ah! Find the old PBO that has the article on DIY fold away chart tables /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif
I mainly use my chart table for writing my log.
I mainly use my chart table for writing my log.
Are Nav Stations a waste of space?
- Thread starter oceanfroggie
- Start date
Sans Bateau
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Anyway the thread was more about space than electronics v paper. I assume folk can use the paper on the saloon table. I was interested if folks would give up the chart table space for more cabin space or extra head, etc, and so far the answers have been very useful.
[/ QUOTE ]
Its interesting, because there is very much a move away from putting nav stations on boats, useful ones anyway. Question is, are the boat designers making the decision that big saloons sell more boats? Or is there really a decline in the desire for a nav station? One way or another, looking at your poll, the boat designers may need to think again.
Anyway the thread was more about space than electronics v paper. I assume folk can use the paper on the saloon table. I was interested if folks would give up the chart table space for more cabin space or extra head, etc, and so far the answers have been very useful.
[/ QUOTE ]
Its interesting, because there is very much a move away from putting nav stations on boats, useful ones anyway. Question is, are the boat designers making the decision that big saloons sell more boats? Or is there really a decline in the desire for a nav station? One way or another, looking at your poll, the boat designers may need to think again.
lancerno1
Member
Surely the main reason for a chart table is so the poor navigator/skipper has a good excuse for going down below out of the wind and rain to warm up!
Sixpence
Well-Known Member
You don't seriously think it's all waterproof, do you ?
It aint /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
It aint /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Slow_boat
Well-Known Member
My previous two boats (20ft and 26ft) had no chart table so navigation was a board on the knees. New boat (29ft) has a decent sized chart table which I use all the time. Drinks are not allowed on it.
I admit to being old fashioned, I learned to sail before GPS, VHF etc, but I cannot see what is so difficult about passage planning to require a computer.
I do have a gps, I use it to for distance and bearing to plot on the chart. I also have a chart plotter that I must wire in this winter, if I can figure out where to put it. That will be for pilotage, in support of chart, depth sounder and mk1 eyeball.
I admit to being old fashioned, I learned to sail before GPS, VHF etc, but I cannot see what is so difficult about passage planning to require a computer.
I do have a gps, I use it to for distance and bearing to plot on the chart. I also have a chart plotter that I must wire in this winter, if I can figure out where to put it. That will be for pilotage, in support of chart, depth sounder and mk1 eyeball.
terrywilson1234
Well-Known Member
Yeah, waste of time.
Saloon table has way more space for most Nav and the pilot book is best used outside anyway.
Nav station seems to just collect junk.
Saloon table has way more space for most Nav and the pilot book is best used outside anyway.
Nav station seems to just collect junk.
stav
Well-Known Member
Would not be without my chart table, use a yeoman plotter for my pasages and passage planning and a small (5") standard horizon plotter for pilotage work, especially useful when single handed. On a longer passage (more than 30 miles) still do plots so I can see if the tide has done what I thought it might with me.
Pleased with the result though as I thought it was a bit of a scary question and might give the cost consious builders more ammunition to build less! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Pleased with the result though as I thought it was a bit of a scary question and might give the cost consious builders more ammunition to build less! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
clouty
Well-Known Member
in a vessel below 28 ft, it is not possible to provide a decent nav station. In a vessel over 35 foot, there is space for a nav station which can be, in turns and according to circs, place for nav, tools, galley, study, bar, tele, improptu as you will (lets not get rude here) as has been mentioned. Between those lengths, horses for courses.
Anyone who relies exclusively on electronic nav, from main batteries or from cells, please listen. they don't always work at sea.
In a smaller boat, the saloon table has space for planning.
The cockpit within the sprayhood or doghouse is cool, if not too wet, for notes and pilotage
But bigger is more civilised, if more expensive, and harder work.
Anyone who relies exclusively on electronic nav, from main batteries or from cells, please listen. they don't always work at sea.
In a smaller boat, the saloon table has space for planning.
The cockpit within the sprayhood or doghouse is cool, if not too wet, for notes and pilotage
But bigger is more civilised, if more expensive, and harder work.
grumpy_o_g
Well-Known Member
You can't realistically be comparing your boat's electronics to commercial avionics surely? I bet the quality control on a Raymarine or Lowrance marine plotter is lot closer to Tom-Tom's than to Garmin's or Collin's avionics. That's before we talk about redundancy, integrated design, certification, strict maintenance and testing schedules, trained and qualified maintainers and users, etc.
I've had 3 sat-navs fail on me in the car and one at sea (whilst trying to find the way in to Christchurch at night on a falling tide). Given that I only started sailing again a few years back and don't make much use of GPS that's not a good track record to me.
30 years ago aircraft were still using VOR, LORAN, Decca, TACAN and other such wonderful things. A paper chart was not only essential to plot on, it was pretty much assumed you'd be relying on it fairly frequently. These days you still can't get a PPL, never mind a CPL or ATPL if you can't recover from a "situation" and then identify where you are on a map (no instruments) from an unknown position (i.e. you're more or less lost).
I don't know if it's actually illegal to fly commercially without charts but I doubt anyone actually does. What's wrong with DR? The altimeter, compass and ASI are all required to be stand-alone and mechanical so they will work regardless of lightning, power failures etc.
Edit:
Regarding a separate chart table the one advantage I seem to remember of them was that you didn't get shouted for making the saloon seats wet when going below to perform the black arts if you had your own little space to do plots. The thing I hated was that they were usually tucked in behind the bulkhead, probably with the end of a quarter berth as your seat - that made it very difficult to communicate with the helmsman. Trying to get a genuine course steered (as opposed to what he was supposed to steer) out of them or the speed we'd made on average was often the hardest part of the job.
I've had 3 sat-navs fail on me in the car and one at sea (whilst trying to find the way in to Christchurch at night on a falling tide). Given that I only started sailing again a few years back and don't make much use of GPS that's not a good track record to me.
30 years ago aircraft were still using VOR, LORAN, Decca, TACAN and other such wonderful things. A paper chart was not only essential to plot on, it was pretty much assumed you'd be relying on it fairly frequently. These days you still can't get a PPL, never mind a CPL or ATPL if you can't recover from a "situation" and then identify where you are on a map (no instruments) from an unknown position (i.e. you're more or less lost).
I don't know if it's actually illegal to fly commercially without charts but I doubt anyone actually does. What's wrong with DR? The altimeter, compass and ASI are all required to be stand-alone and mechanical so they will work regardless of lightning, power failures etc.
Edit:
Regarding a separate chart table the one advantage I seem to remember of them was that you didn't get shouted for making the saloon seats wet when going below to perform the black arts if you had your own little space to do plots. The thing I hated was that they were usually tucked in behind the bulkhead, probably with the end of a quarter berth as your seat - that made it very difficult to communicate with the helmsman. Trying to get a genuine course steered (as opposed to what he was supposed to steer) out of them or the speed we'd made on average was often the hardest part of the job.
BrendanS
Well-Known Member
I suspect it depends on how happy you are to navigate without electronics.
I grew up on aircraft and hill walking navigation, without any aids.
I'll happily use any electronic aids to assist me. If they all fail, I have a map in my head of where I am, and can quickly revert to paper charts.
That depends on you understanding navigation from first principles, and I am getting more rusty by the day, so I should go back and practise once in a while
I grew up on aircraft and hill walking navigation, without any aids.
I'll happily use any electronic aids to assist me. If they all fail, I have a map in my head of where I am, and can quickly revert to paper charts.
That depends on you understanding navigation from first principles, and I am getting more rusty by the day, so I should go back and practise once in a while
[10753]
...
Personally wouldn't buy a boat without one. However, it must be useable.
Currently have a very useful chart table with stowage underneath for all my charts and books etc. Everything is in one place.
When not being used for charts and log books etc. its a handy dumping ground and also provides a good seat !
Currently have a very useful chart table with stowage underneath for all my charts and books etc. Everything is in one place.
When not being used for charts and log books etc. its a handy dumping ground and also provides a good seat !
Seagreen
Well-Known Member
The obvious point here is that fixed chart tables may be a waste of space...
Having a special locker, the front of which folds down to be the chart table, I get the best of both worlds. A big chart table which disappears when not necessary. I don't know why manufacturers don't do this more often.
Having a special locker, the front of which folds down to be the chart table, I get the best of both worlds. A big chart table which disappears when not necessary. I don't know why manufacturers don't do this more often.
oceanfroggie
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
You can't realistically be comparing your boat's electronics to commercial avionics surely?
[/ QUOTE ]Yes I am quite serious! I've had VOR, ILS, DME and COM failures on light aircraft, but I've yet to have a marine GPS fail.
<u>As to redundancy I have the following electonics setup:</u><ul type="square">[*]Fixed Raymarine Plotter/Radar - supplied from engine batteries, own antenna
[*]Fixed Garmin Plotter - supplied from domestic batteries, own antenna
Portable Plotter, own Li-ion battery and built in antenna IPX7
[*]Fixed VHF, two antenna[/list]Then the grab bag has a NiMH handheld VHF, spare AA cells, battery powered handheld GPS, PLB, and the other usual suspects.
As a final backup to GW Bush choking on his diet of bananas and triping out the entire gps network I have the paper charts to hand, HBC, portland plotter and a few pencils, which by the way I'm very fond of.
Have also used a Garmin 296C aviation GPS and find it reliable as well as an excellent nav aid. Commercial aircraft only carry IFR charts with non topographic information only airspace and nav aid information. Only VFR light aircraft use VFR paper charts, not 737s! /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
So if we all trust a 737 to get us safely to a destination soley on electronics, why not a boat that just floats if it has a rig and/or engine failure?
You can't realistically be comparing your boat's electronics to commercial avionics surely?
[/ QUOTE ]Yes I am quite serious! I've had VOR, ILS, DME and COM failures on light aircraft, but I've yet to have a marine GPS fail.
<u>As to redundancy I have the following electonics setup:</u><ul type="square">[*]Fixed Raymarine Plotter/Radar - supplied from engine batteries, own antenna
[*]Fixed Garmin Plotter - supplied from domestic batteries, own antenna
Portable Plotter, own Li-ion battery and built in antenna IPX7
[*]Fixed VHF, two antenna[/list]Then the grab bag has a NiMH handheld VHF, spare AA cells, battery powered handheld GPS, PLB, and the other usual suspects.
As a final backup to GW Bush choking on his diet of bananas and triping out the entire gps network I have the paper charts to hand, HBC, portland plotter and a few pencils, which by the way I'm very fond of.
Have also used a Garmin 296C aviation GPS and find it reliable as well as an excellent nav aid. Commercial aircraft only carry IFR charts with non topographic information only airspace and nav aid information. Only VFR light aircraft use VFR paper charts, not 737s! /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
So if we all trust a 737 to get us safely to a destination soley on electronics, why not a boat that just floats if it has a rig and/or engine failure?
Whitelighter
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Are chart tables a waste of space?
[/ QUOTE ]
Very dangerous thoughts! Obviously you have never suffered total electrical loss whilst at sea, possibly in fog, possibly in a storm.
If ever you rely 'totally' on electronic navigation without a backup facility . . . . will allow the Darwinian Theory to deplete the gene pool of stupid people. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
[/ QUOTE ]
Hang on a minute. OF didnt say he relied on electronics, in fact he says that back up charts can be used on the saloon table quite adequatly, or even dare a I say it at the helm (I have a little chart area covered in perspex next to mine).
The question was does the space need to be given to a dedicated chart area, or could we get by using the saloon table in times of need.
[ QUOTE ]
Are chart tables a waste of space?
[/ QUOTE ]
Very dangerous thoughts! Obviously you have never suffered total electrical loss whilst at sea, possibly in fog, possibly in a storm.
If ever you rely 'totally' on electronic navigation without a backup facility . . . . will allow the Darwinian Theory to deplete the gene pool of stupid people. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
[/ QUOTE ]
Hang on a minute. OF didnt say he relied on electronics, in fact he says that back up charts can be used on the saloon table quite adequatly, or even dare a I say it at the helm (I have a little chart area covered in perspex next to mine).
The question was does the space need to be given to a dedicated chart area, or could we get by using the saloon table in times of need.
terrywilson1234
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
The question was does the space need to be given to a dedicated chart area, or could we get by using the saloon table in times of need.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, but I think some people were reluctant to let that get in the way of a good indignant rant!
The question was does the space need to be given to a dedicated chart area, or could we get by using the saloon table in times of need.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, but I think some people were reluctant to let that get in the way of a good indignant rant!
oceanfroggie
Well-Known Member
Sorry and I was silly enough to get side tracked into electronics. It was about space.
jbweston
Well-Known Member
Well, I suppose it depends on how much space you've got and how high a priority it is to have somewhere to do chartwork, write, lay out shopping lists, listen to the Archers while dismantling pumps, etc.
I wouldn't be without mine both for chartwork and as a great desk when in harbour. At home, I spend a lot of my time at a desk (like now). I have one, my wife has one, my grown up son and daughter (who live at home) each have their own. So even if the EU / IMO make paper charts illegal, I'll still have a chart table as a place to read the manuals for my plotter over a glass of whiskey.
I wouldn't be without mine both for chartwork and as a great desk when in harbour. At home, I spend a lot of my time at a desk (like now). I have one, my wife has one, my grown up son and daughter (who live at home) each have their own. So even if the EU / IMO make paper charts illegal, I'll still have a chart table as a place to read the manuals for my plotter over a glass of whiskey.
roger
Well-Known Member
On small boats they are a waste. We do not have one and use the cabin table. The main disadvantages are that its further from the companionway and you are liable to get the cushions damp. Sailing in the Swedish skerries we must have the plotter visble from the helm but I do the planning and route setting down below on the cabin table where I have room for charts and a second power point for the plotter. In harbour the plotter goes below for security.