Are modern yachts designed wrong?

davidej said:
It was featured in one of the mags - Yachting Monthly probably -and called the YM(?) 35 (36?).

I remember mooring up to a sister-ship in Veere in about 1998/99 and being very taken with it.

Ticked all my boxes except the budget
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Not the same boat - the one you are thinking of was a Humphreys design. Andrew's is called Shindig and is (from memory) the third boat of similar design he has built. The second called Vlad has just had a major rebuild in Poole as it was originally very spartan and race orientated, but now has many of the features of the later boat.
 
i had one of the last Wooden Wayfarers and it was epoxy soaked timber and epoxy glued but even with this construction I could not keep up with the maintenance on a 16' boat let alone 40'+.

Dancrane have you looked at RM wooden boats?
 
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doug748 said:
I have drawn attention to this beauty before:

http://www.yachtsnet.co.uk/boats/o41111/o41111.htm

You would need to have a heart fabricated from tinplate not to love it.

Like the interior.To staid on the outside.


Alas all non-mainstream construction seems to take a cold shower on the used market, 70k is a fraction of it's rebuild cost.
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Like the interior.To staid on the outside.
 
Apologies if its been mentioned before but I haven't had time to read all of the posts
I sail a 28ft long keeler which I love. Ok shes not the quickest but you gain immense satisfaction when overtaking a badly sailed awb in a blow up wind and knowing that she'll look after you whatever the weather within reason. For me though it's not about long keel versus fin and more about displacement. Having sailed a limited number of awb's there is no way I'd buy one sub 32ft even with all the in harbour benefits. The Dufour 30 I chartered in Turkey a few years back felt like it was going to fall apart in a F6, cupboards would o only open on one tack etc, but once you get to around 34/36 feet the awb will happily cope with anything we are likely encounter. So ultimately I'm left with keep something worth circa £15k or spending at least twice that for something which in my mind is only marginally better with anything significantly better costing a hell of a lot more.
 
awol said:
..............otherwise it's the fat-arsed soap dishes with toys like electric swim platforms..................you pays your money and takes your choice.
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Yep, I have one of those and it's a 100% perfect match for my sailing aspirations. I paid with my hard earned money, it's my choice and it brings an incredible smile to my face each time I step aboard. My wife rather likes the microwave and electric flush heads, too.
 
Tranona said:
What you are describing is exactly the same method as is used in composite boats using a variety of core materials encapsulated in resin - but not the same as "traditional" GRP. Wood does have the advantage that you can use its structural properties to design load bearing structures using the minimum materials. However, being a natural product the properties are more variable than a manufactured product such Kevlar or carbon fibre.

You are right that you can build a frameless structure but that needs a more sophisticated mould and techniques such as vacuum bagging or hot mould curing to be successful. This tends to take this method away from amateur constructors for anything but the smaller sizes of boat. Framed or semi framed construction is perhaps better as the framing can be the mould and it makes it easier to fit out the interior if some framing exists rather than bonding in the interior into a frameless shell.

Don't get me wrong. I am a great fan of wood epoxy and built boats using the method (although not moulded) over 30 years ago. However, over the years I have seen the potential downsides. Just as an example, I recently looked at a cold moulded boat built in the early 1990's by a builder who was one of the leading advocates of the method. It was an advanced design from a top designer and had many features that have since become mainstream. The cost at the time was about 3 times what a production boat of similar size would have been. Unfortunately a subsequent owner neglected it and failed to deal with leaks from deck fittings and the hull started to rot from the gunwhales downwards. All looked fine from the outside until the dark spots on the varnish and bubbles on the paint appeared. It has just had a major refit by the same people that built it who will hopefully have learned from the experience!

So before you get too carried away with the wonder material have a look at boats from the past to see how important good detail design and construction is if you want to build a durable boat.

ps Just seen Robin's reference to Andrew Simpson's boat. I watched that being built, but he is not an amateur in the strictest sense. The design is also nothing like you are considering, but light displacement, flat bottomed, deep fin keel and semi-balanced rudder hung on a short skeg. It does however, have a tiller and is by all accounts easy to sail, directionally stable and light on the helm.
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Very interesting, thanks. I am a wood person and so understand it quite well. My understanding is that it is vitally important to completely encase the wood in cold molding. It shouldn't be too hard to do and should be less prone to problems than balsa cored standard grp boats. My current boat which is entirely made of wood has plenty of rot problems, many of which I have resolved through its renovation and some which remain due to not having had time to redeck. I think it is about attention to detail, every screw hole needs to be sealed with epoxy and anywhere liable to wear needs reinforced with glass fibre. However, despite these requirements preventing rot in wood is not all that complicated and starts with the choice of timber. If I build this thing it will more than likely be over engineered as it would likely be my final boat as I can't foresee needing anything different. I expect there is more maintenance required on my 50 year old, slightly down at heal honeybee than there would ever be in a new construction which is entirely understood and maintained from day one by the owner/builder.
 
doug748 said:
I have drawn attention to this beauty before:

http://www.yachtsnet.co.uk/boats/o41111/o41111.htm

You would need to have a heart fabricated from tinplate not to love it.


Alas all non-mainstream construction seems to take a cold shower on the used market, 70k is a fraction of it's rebuild cost.
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I know that boat quite well. The builder used to live just across the road from me. If circumstances had been a bit different I could have been the person paying that modest sum to buy it. You are right. It cost over £250k when new, which at the time would have bought a similar size HR. Combination of slightly quirky design (although top designer), hard life and the unusual construction really limits the market. So the original asking price (which reflected reasonable depreciation from new) tumbled gradually, boat left unused and looking sadder and sadder, until it reached a price that overruled the perceived negatives.
 
Camelia said:
Wonderful to see there is another UK fan of this fantastic French boat.

Just waiting for the Lotto winnings :)
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I only play if the jackpot is >40M..... not that it makes any logical sense, but it is a way to stave off addiction :-)...
 
pmagowan said:
Very interesting, thanks. I am a wood person and so understand it quite well. My understanding is that it is vitally important to completely encase the wood in cold molding.
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That is where the problems start. You have to make a lot of holes to attach things to the hull and deck and it is a nightmare to keep them sealed, Cored GRP structures are easier to deal with as you can create solid laminates at areas where there are potential holes such as around hull/deck joints, keel areas or chainplates. This is much more difficult to do with wood core, particularly decks and coachroofs and you will see that many wood composite boats such as Shindig and the RM range actually have GRP decks and coachroofs. Sealing upperworks which are exposed to fresh water is much more difficult than hulls. It is possible to completely sheath wooden decks and coachroofs as in the Golden Hinds, but you still have the problem of deck fittings hatches windows locker lids etc - indeed the last few Golden Hinds had GRP cockpits and aft decks to overcome the problems of making those areas watertight.

The choice of timber is difficult. The really durable timbers such as iroko or teak are heavy and poor for laminating as they do not take resin well. Mahogany types are quite a good compromise but expensive. The most popular are the more durable softwoods like douglas fir or light hardwoods such as cedars which although soft are easy to work and absorb epoxy well.
 
dancrane said:
With all respect...what's her problem? :confused:
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Doesn't like dark interiors.

You have to go inside a deck saloon with light creamy stone coloured interior to see the vast difference. Many ladies remark how they like the interior of our boat and also don't get seasick. I think is a combination of light interior and big glass areas (obv not glass but porthole does not describe them).

I once aspired to a Westerly oceanlord and took her to see one that had been lovingly restored (it wasn't for sale). Wife made appropriate complimentary noises to owner but once off it she said she hated it - Small portholes and dark mahogany interior! that sorted me out on future boat choices!!

Different folks - different strokes but having got a boat she enjoys spending 6wks or more sailing not risking changing it. Saw the off white leather that 6 cows sacrificed to do the interior upholstery today! I asked about Alacantara but luckily a work colleague has just bought a Bavaria with similar light upholstery and reported that she is always washing dirty marks off it - hence leather.
 
Tranona said:
I know that boat quite well. The builder used to live just across the road from me. If circumstances had been a bit different I could have been the person paying that modest sum to buy it........
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A fine looking boat. The interior is one alternative to the direction shown by many new designs. But only if people are willing to pay, of course.

As it hung around, I was tempted to have a look. The last thing I need is a 40ft boat so I am glad I stayed at home.

My main doubts and worries would have been over the long term maintenance of the coachroof and deck. I am sure the hull would be very durable.

PS

Have just read post #152!
 
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dancrane said:
Slightly surprised your wife approves of that, Sailfree! ;)
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Its either that after 25yrs she trusts me or knows I am past it!

Unfortunately I suspect its the latter!!

Be going out with my children and ex wife (of 24yrs) on Thursday to see a band and wife is OK about that!! yep - definitely past it!
 
Tranona said:
I know that boat quite well. The builder used to live just across the road from me. If circumstances had been a bit different I could have been the person paying that modest sum to buy it. You are right. It cost over £250k when new, which at the time would have bought a similar size HR.
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The problem is, it doesn't look like a production boat; it just looks like a one-off.
 
pvb said:
The problem is, it doesn't look like a production boat; it just looks like a one-off.
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That's a problem? Isn't originality the very essence of character? Marinas full of endless white similarity are what I (and others) dislike about otherwise-able AWBs.
 
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