Are modern yachts designed wrong?

[Tranona]

Good point.

Slightly separate issue, but maybe someone can tell me, I'm interested...has a long keel ever fallen off a yacht mid-ocean?

Why this obsession with keels falling off? Just because one boat has an accident of some sort people seem take it as a norm for the tens of thousands of others that DON'T fall off.

If you look through history you will find all sorts of boats have sunk mid-ocean - long keel, fin keel catamarans, centreboard etc etc. Doesn't stop others from choosing to go sailing in similar boats.

 

[pmagowan]

Which is surely the only conclusion that has ever been reached from any of these frequent "are modern boats rubbish" threads.

Well, it is not a 'modern boats are rubbish' thread as that it blatantly not the case. Modern boats are better in almost every way. It is about the design being determined by factors that might not match the reality of cruising. Like buying a car that can go 200mph when you don't need to. It might be that advertising affects our judgement. I am simply wondering whether there is not more loses than gains to the average cruiser from adding in racing features.

 

[Sailfree]

Slightly separate issue, but maybe someone can tell me, I'm interested...has a long keel ever fallen off a yacht mid-ocean?

Sometimes you have to turn these thoughts round

How many fin keels have crossed oceans and have had no problems with their keels?

Whats the ratio of fin keels without problems that have crossed oceans to the ratio of long keels that have crossed oceans without problems.

I suspect that once you include all the charter boats in the Carribean that from years ago were sailed there the ratio could be as high as 100:1

Where's the problem?

Again I would remind everyone that every years 1000's die in cars that are inadequately designed to withstand the stresses/impacts imposed on them. We have over the years had a few fin failures which most accept are due to impacts/grounding and a number climb on their soapbox and ponticates on how 99% of yacht manufacturers have got it wrong.

 

[Twister_Ken]

If a fin keeler isn't out performing a long keeler of the same size...it might not be the "fault" of the boat....

Don't think I've ever said that! I'd be very worried if I couldn't get a good modern boat to go faster than a good old one.

Extra thought. The people who really understand these things are yacht designers. None of them (except maybe to client demands) is drawing long-keelers anymore. Long keelers are a hangover from the days of wooden boats, and first generation GRP: 1950/60 state of the art. Material, engineering and hydrodynamic knowledge has advanced a long way since then, and designers use it.

 

[Greenheart]

Why this obsession with keels falling off? Just because one boat has an accident of some sort people seem take it as a norm

Ah. Sorry. I thought perhaps there had been other similar instances. And since it is about as calamitous as anything that could occur mid-ocean, I thought longer, stronger keels might be a characteristic that offshore yachtsmen would rate as safer.

 

[pmagowan]

Whenever I see this question I am tempted to think of a motoring analogy which wold be something like:-

Why don't car manufacturers make cars like the Mark II Cortina any more? And we know the answer. Because design and technology has changed a lot in the past 30 years.

Why would anyine want a 30 year old design?

But I wouldn't drive a formula one car to the shops or on a caravan holiday.

 

[maby]

Well, it is not a 'modern boats are rubbish' thread as that it blatantly not the case. Modern boats are better in almost every way. It is about the design being determined by factors that might not match the reality of cruising. Like buying a car that can go 200mph when you don't need to. It might be that advertising affects our judgement. I am simply wondering whether there is not more loses than gains to the average cruiser from adding in racing features.

"Cruising" is a very broad term - it covers everything from softies like my wife and I who coast hop in good weather, seldom going more than twenty miles from shore and sleeping in a marina every night to the long distance passages of friends who crossed the Atlantic from the USA, spent months exploring the Spanish and French coast and are now heading into the Baltic. I think most modern designs match our version of cruising - coast hopping and bumming round the Med - and they do that very well, offering excellent accomodation, and good performance, all at an affordable price. Your requirements seem to be different - neither of us is right or wrong in any absolute sense, but you are perfectly entitled to go for a more traditional design.

 

[maby]

Ah. Sorry. I thought perhaps there had been other similar instances. And since it is about as calamitous as anything that could occur mid-ocean, I thought longer, stronger keels might be a characteristic that offshore yachtsmen would rate as safer.

Surely most long keels are either molded in, or at the very least bolted on over a very large area? I've never heard of a long keeler losing its keel - which is fortuate since most of them would have very little form stability and would be over very quickly once the keel was gone - there are well documented instances of fin keelers that have carried on sailing perfectly well long after they dropped their keels.

 

[prv]

We have over the years had a few fin failures which most accept are due to impacts/grounding

You say that like it's a get-out clause - but impacts and grounding are a fact of life, especially once you get outside the bailliwick of first-world hydrographic offices. A true ocean-cruising boat needs to take this into account.

(I realise that it's perfectly possible to cruise and even circumnavigate successfully in a boat designed for different purposes, but that's not the question.)

Pete

 

[Sailfree]

Ah. Sorry. I thought perhaps there had been other similar instances. And since it is about as calamitous as anything that could occur mid-ocean, I thought longer, stronger keels might be a characteristic that offshore yachtsmen would rate as safer.

No you are wrong.

Many would put a priority on aluminium or steel over GRP hulls before they would worry about keels.

A number would consider a lifting keel (that you lift and skid over the water in bad conditions) more important that long keels or fin keels as it is argued that a lifting keel greatly reduces the risk of being rolled - hence the blue water aluminium hulled Ovni has an AVS of only circa 107 deg (AWB circa 125deg) (Rustler circa 155 deg).

A number would consider the wine shape hull with a long keel severely uncomfortable for ocean crossing as it heels so quickly as it has no "form" stability and hence not preferable. A number advocate that its tiredness/seasickness at sea that causes more lives to be lost and sailing a boat on its side like long keelers I find very tiring.

I respectfully suggest you consider ALL aspects of sailing across oceans rather than a fin keel that can get damaged after a grounding impact. Last time I looked at an ocean chart grounding was not a big risk mid ocean!

 

[Sailfree]

You say that like it's a get-out clause

Its not a get out clause but I cannot understand the reaction to the consequences of this failure while everyone accepts the failure of cars in the much higher statistical risk of an impact that kills you.

 

[Twister_Ken]

Well, it is not a 'modern boats are rubbish' thread as that it blatantly not the case. Modern boats are better in almost every way. It is about the design being determined by factors that might not match the reality of cruising. Like buying a car that can go 200mph when you don't need to. It might be that advertising affects our judgement. I am simply wondering whether there is not more loses than gains to the average cruiser from adding in racing features.

I'm struggling to work out what 'racing features' there are on a modern cruiser.

It's a while since I've been on an out-and-out race boat, but the specific race features I remember…

short, low coachroof
no windows
long cockpit
carbon rig
vestigial accommodation
open heads
one burner stove
pipe cots
empty forepeak for sail stowage
minimum tankage
under-sized engine
running backstays
no toe rails except forward
few/no mooring cleats
no anchor roller - or some sort of mickey mouse temporary arrangement

…aren't found on mom and pop cruisers, even modern ones.

Things that have crossed over, to a greater or lesser extent, and are now more or less mainstream might be:

open transomed cockpits (easy to argue that it's a good feature as it empties pretty well immediately if a sea breaks into it, as opposed to minutes if the greenie has to gurgle away down cockpit drains)
inboard sheeting (better pointing)
high aspect fractional rigs (less muscle needed to trim them)
deep fin, bulbed keels (but there's often a shallow draught version on offer as well)
folding/feathering props (why tow a fixed prop around when it' s not needed most of the time and costs half a knot or more of boat speed when sailing)
bow sprits or prodders (makes chute flying easier)

…and are generally plus points, not demerits (or they wouldn't be there).

 

[Greenheart]

I've never heard of a long keeler losing its keel.

Nor me.

...there are well documented instances of fin keelers that have carried on sailing perfectly well long after they dropped their keels.

Cripes! Those tendencies fins have, to snag lines, collide jarringly with flotsam or the seabed, and restrict zones-of-use to deep water...and the damned boat didn't even need it!

This case of the 37ft Jeanneau which nonchalantly left her keel behind, comes dangerously close to being funny. http://www.wavetrain.net/news-a-views/190-charter-boat-loses-keel-and-no-one-noticed

 

[Tranona]

Ah. Sorry. I thought perhaps there had been other similar instances. And since it is about as calamitous as anything that could occur mid-ocean, I thought longer, stronger keels might be a characteristic that offshore yachtsmen would rate as safer.

If you read the detailed reports on keel loss the two common causes are grounding or bad design/ manufacture. Almost all of the latter related to either racing or extreme use. Often also a combination of more than one factor. Failures "mid Ocean" are almost unheard of unless there is some other contributing factor.

Some ocean cruisers may well consider long keel boats better for their purpose, but not sure the empirical evidence would support the view that they are inherently "safer". Much of it is in the mind rather than the result of rational thought!

 

[MrB]

With all the talk on keels why are lifting keels not used as much? The Southerly, to me, has the best of all worlds. If you hit it, it just folds up, you can beach it for a scrub......what's not to love or am i missing something. (yes i know they take up more room)

 

[stevepick]

But I wouldn't drive a formula one car to the shops or on a caravan holiday.

Your average cruiser racer - like an arcona or dufour or an elan aren't formula 1, they aren't even formula 3000, they are the auto equivalent of good , german , long legged, comfortable , reliable , fun to drive cars. Formula 3000 are the corby's. formula 1 is the america's cup cats. People routinely go on holidays to the south for france, drive the alpine passes with a smile on their face in their family touring saloons .

Reverse the question were the yachts of yesteryear designed wrongly? Yes , they used wood , with all its limitations, when from the 30's onwards steel then aluminium would have been better materials prior to the arrival of grp. Hydrodynamics research and understanding, and computer analysis have meant huge leap forwards in strength and lightness (anyone who think the brick outhouse is a good design formula really needs to look closely at the next aeroplane they next fly on). And for the folk who don't like plumb stems - look at a bristol channel pilot cutter.

You can make a fast boat go slowly, but you can't make a slow boat go fast. Its as simple as that, modern hulls give you options, options on a yacht are always good.

 

[Sailfree]

With all the talk on keels why are lifting keels not used as much? The Southerly, to me, has the best of all worlds. If you hit it, it just folds up, you can beach it for a scrub......what's not to love or am i missing something. (yes i know they take up more room)

Your right the Southerly would be one of my first choices followed by an Arcona but I have only been able to buy cheap production AWB's not these that have nice features but cost more.

This thread is really about the few who are not in the market for a new boat saying they wouldn't buy one anyway as the yacht manufactures don't know what they are doing!

 

[Tranona]

With all the talk on keels why are lifting keels not used as much? The Southerly, to me, has the best of all worlds. If you hit it, it just folds up, you can beach it for a scrub......what's not to love or am i missing something. (yes i know they take up more room)

For all the normal rational reasons. People who buy boats in that price bracket do not think the compromises are worth it. A very small number do, which is why they still exist (just). Seriously now the majority of yachting is going from one deep water berth to another, the benefits of shallow draft are very limited, and the cost in terms of space and complexity is too much for most people - who don't need the shallow draft anyway.

 

[TimBennet]

Extra thought. The people who really understand these things are yacht designers. None of them (except maybe to client demands) is drawing long-keelers anymore. Long keelers are a hangover from the days of wooden boats, and first generation GRP: 1950/60 state of the art. Material, engineering and hydrodynamic knowledge has advanced a long way since then, and designers use it.

I think you have to go back further than 50/60's to get 'true' long keelers. Boats like the Pilot Cutters with their deep fore-foots, their rudders placed well aft and very substantial displacements did possess a package of characteristics that many people still admire. Especially if you want to heave to for days in a gale. But in the 40's through to the 70's, the design of lots of 'long-keelers' underwent plenty of 'modernisations' including many that were driven by the CCA or RORC rules of their era. Forefoots were cut away, rudder posts were inclined forwards, displacement lowered, excessive overhangs fore and aft, etc as better ratings were chased, or wetted surface area shed. Amongst boats designed primarily for racing, the influence of the rating rules probably went back a century before that as well. The American and British boats for the very first America's Cup were all 'long keelers' but their designs shared nothing in common and their sailing characteristics were chalk and cheese.

I constantly have people point at their 'long keel' boat and wax lyrical about it, as if all its the characteristics were solely because it has the rudder attached to the keel. Somehow the huge variations to be found amongst long keel boats in their displacements, beam, waterline length/LOA ratio, canoebody depth, sail area/displacement ratios, draft, internal or external ballast, hard/slack bilges, rudder ratio, propeller aperture all count for nothing - it's the fact it's simply that they are 'long keeled' that imbibes them with all their characteristics.

But attaching the rudder to the keel does not guarantee any particular sailing characteristic. Some have their rudders so far forward that they are too twitchy to ever think of leaving the helm and the worst for unbearable weather helm have all been long keelers. It's a fact that good well mannered sailing boats, are simply good well mannered sailing boats and I have found exemplary examples amongst all keel configurations. Dogs are dogs. Other desirable characteristics can then be added to your taste, by looking at displacement, beam, freeboard, draft, etc.

All the desirable characteristics that people normally assign to long keelers (easy motion, direction stability, load carrying, etc) can all be found just as well in a detatched rudder / fin keel boat that has similar displacement, balanced waterlines, moderate beam, soft-ish bilges, deep canoebody, etc. Designers like Ted Brewer even drew the same design as both, and most people agreed the ones with his 'Brewer Bite' were preferable. He claimed the only unique thing a full keeled boat could do over other keel configurations was have excessive wetted surface area. The moment someone comes up with a good reason for that, is when designers will start drawing them again.

 

[Greenheart]

A number would consider a lifting keel (that you lift and skid over the water in bad conditions) more important that long keels or fin keels as it is argued that a lifting keel greatly reduces the risk of being rolled - hence the blue water aluminium hulled Ovni has an AVS of only circa 107 deg (AWB circa 125deg) (Rustler circa 155 deg).

Ah, Ovni. It's a pity that name doesn't roll off the tongue, because their combination of unusual features seems to set a high standard of adroit, enviable versatility...

...as I myself mentioned earlier in this thread!

I like the look, feel & reputation of long-keelers, but I'd probably want the practicality of a multi or centreboarder. Right up till the moment I'd go and buy a Salar 40 instead...

View attachment 42985 View attachment 42986

...it's the sheltered helm that does it for me. Possibly for the OP, too?

Isn't weight of construction an issue too? Are there any deep-finners that are heavier than long-finners or long-keelers of similar approximate length and beam? The impression I have is that every aspect of construction is much sturdier in doddery old long-keeled designs, than in AWBs with their translucent topsides.

If anyone's idly wondering why chaps like me admire old-timers more than new stuff, there's a good account of a Salar 40 here: http://www.condesa.org/about-my-boat/

I particularly like the horrifying account of the vessel being run down by a container ship...if you don't know it, read it, you won't be sorry: http://www.condesa.org/assorted-adventures/the-run-over-by-a-container-ship-story/

One line in particular stays with me; granted it's the skipper's opinion, but it's convincing:
"Thanks to 1967 insecurity with that newfangled boatbuilding material, fiberglass, Condesa bounced rather than broke. A lighter boat would have gone to the bottom."