Are modern yachts designed wrong?

[KellysEye]

>Just how large is the usual area of disturbance of a typical deep depression in the Atlantic, how fast do they move, and with what certainty as to their track?

Do a search on north Atlantic storms some recent ones have been hurricane force. All the storms are forecast, including track. well ahead so can be avoided. To see the winter storms get a free copy of UGRIB, www.grib.us You can highlight the area you want and get a forecast for up to seven days.

 

[Tempus]

No, "ordinary people can aspire" to bigger boats, it was never exclusively "a sport for the very rich". Fifty years ago, as a young, impoverished, ordinary person I participated in the sport by saving, sacrificing and self-building. Now ordinary people can buy a new, big boat on mortgage as well as their 4x4s, smartphones, tablets, large-screen TVs and all the other 'stuff' that modern man aspires to.

Not sure whether this is a celebration of the democratisation of modern life or a whinge about it. I'll take it as the former. I strongly suspect that whatever the merits or otherwise of modern boats they are much better than the self-build ferro cement monstrosities of yesteryear (not implying that yours was one of those btw!)

 

[BrianH]

Not sure whether this is a celebration of the democratisation of modern life or a whinge about it. I'll take it as the former. I strongly suspect that whatever the merits or otherwise of modern boats they are much better than the self-build ferro cement monstrosities of yesteryear (not implying that yours was one of those btw!)

Neither celebration nor whinge, merely observation and an attempt to point out that ordinary people participated in sailing back in the dark ages when we peasants had little or no spare cash; it was not just the sport of the rich and famous.

No, my self-builds were a Fireball and a conversion from a Hilbre One Design dayboat into a small cruiser-racer. I did once seriously consider building a ferro-cement cruiser, but sanity, and a snip of a Yachting World Buccaneer, prevailed.

 

[Twister_Ken]

John, I get what you are saying it was simply the assertion that a long keel is not better at anything that I think is wrong. They are better at taking ground and the are better at avoiding entanglement with pot lines. For instance, say you wanted to he a bit far north where there might be ice, you might be a bit concerned about giving it a wack in an aggressive fin keeler. I know this might be an extreme example but it is only to illustrate my point. I have sacrificed speed for other properties a long keel has. To say a fin keel is better in every way is wrong. As for hydrography by impact, I have never hit the ground in my boat when I wasn't expecting to but I do sometimes put her places where it is likely. Exploring is one of the things I like about sailing. I have even used my long keel to plough my way into Portpatrick before the pub stopped serving food.

I am beginning to think the compromise for me might lie with a long fin keel like the larger Rustlers have. I don't think the aggressive fin keel of many modern production boats is ever going to suit my style of sailing. I have seen what happens to them when you nudge a rock and the skipper was stressed. I don't do stress, I like to shrug and carry on! We need to remember that all design is a compromise and that means improving something at the loss of something else. If speed is your thing then modern designs are perfect but they are certainly not as rugged.

Given the criteria above, you might do better to consider building a steel boat, rather than a wooden one. It would be better able to distribute and absorb the bumps, bangs and bounces you anticipate your style of sailing will occasion.

 

[Tempus]

Neither celebration nor whinge, merely observation and an attempt to point out that ordinary people participated in sailing back in the dark ages when we peasants had little or no spare cash; it was not just the sport of the rich and famous.

No, my self-builds were a Fireball and a conversion from a Hilbre One Design dayboat into a small cruiser-racer. I did once seriously consider building a ferro-cement cruiser, but sanity, and a snip of a Yachting World Buccaneer, prevailed.

No debate that "sailing" has always been open to all. My point is that "yachting" (ie big boat sailing) has only really become possible once boats stopped being hand made and started being made at a price that more people could afford. I think few would describe a self-build fireball as yachting (although agreed that Hilbre sounds fun).

 

[GrahamM376]

I am beginning to think the compromise for me might lie with a long fin keel like the larger Rustlers have. I don't think the aggressive fin keel of many modern production boats is ever going to suit my style of sailing. I have seen what happens to them when you nudge a rock and the skipper was stressed. I don't do stress, I like to shrug and carry on! We need to remember that all design is a compromise and that means improving something at the loss of something else. If speed is your thing then modern designs are perfect but they are certainly not as rugged.

The compromise for me is a strongly mounted scheel keel. Long by modern standards and with skegged rudder nicely directionally stable.

 

[Tempus]

Given the criteria above, you might do better to consider building a steel boat, rather than a wooden one. It would be better able to distribute and absorb the bumps, bangs and bounces you anticipate your style of sailing will occasion.

Or a lift keel, which really does allow hydrography by impact - a french Ovni or Allures would sound suitable for the ice flows. A Stephen Jones designed Southerly would be worth a look for sailing ability and stability (but not price)

Although I always think that ice sailing is better done (and indeed more frequently indulged in) via an armchair by the fire and a book than the real arctic ocean. Most cruising is done in latitudes that liquify the butter for good reasons.

 

[pmagowan]

Given the criteria above, you might do better to consider building a steel boat, rather than a wooden one. It would be better able to distribute and absorb the bumps, bangs and bounces you anticipate your style of sailing will occasion.

No, I think steel is less strong as it need welds etc and plates can buckle. Cold moulded wood would, IMO, be perfect. It essentially forms a continuous homogenous hull. It also would be less affected by the temperature gradients. Don't get me wrong, I don't intend to hit every rock I come across and I currently have no plans to chart the voyage of the Titanic but if I build a boat I will want one that can, with only minor adjustments.

I love all the recommendations as it gives me designs to research but the reason I started the thread was because I have a mad idea to build a boat from scratch and if I do I expect it to be my last boat. I could learn welding and go the metal route (I have plans to learn for other projects anyway) but I love wood so my ideal boat would have a lot of it. Luckily the reason I love wood is also the reason it is a great material for boat building, it's strength, versatility and ease of use. I also want to cast the metal parts myself. I don't want to do this because it is cheaper as it certainly isn't. I want to do it because I like projects like this.

 

[john_morris_uk]

John, I get what you are saying it was simply the assertion that a long keel is not better at anything that I think is wrong. They are better at taking ground and the are better at avoiding entanglement with pot lines. For instance, say you wanted to he a bit far north where there might be ice, you might be a bit concerned about giving it a wack in an aggressive fin keeler. I know this might be an extreme example but it is only to illustrate my point. I have sacrificed speed for other properties a long keel has. To say a fin keel is better in every way is wrong. As for hydrography by impact, I have never hit the ground in my boat when I wasn't expecting to but I do sometimes put her places where it is likely. Exploring is one of the things I like about sailing. I have even used my long keel to plough my way into Portpatrick before the pub stopped serving food.

I am beginning to think the compromise for me might lie with a long fin keel like the larger Rustlers have. I don't think the aggressive fin keel of many modern production boats is ever going to suit my style of sailing. I have seen what happens to them when you nudge a rock and the skipper was stressed. I don't do stress, I like to shrug and carry on! We need to remember that all design is a compromise and that means improving something at the loss of something else. If speed is your thing then modern designs are perfect but they are certainly not as rugged.

I actually think we are of a common mind really. I certainly don't worry too much when my boat hits anything. A glance at the engineering of the lattice of webs and the size and length of the keel shows that she is no lightweight flyer. She also sits on her keel alongside a wall very happily and will even take the ground and lie down without a moments worry.

Strip epoxy built over frames that are later removed (except the bulkheads) then sheathed and vacuum bagged is a way of building a very strong and lightweight hull. I have watched boats being built in this way and they are easy to build but hard to build REALLY well. The longboarding, filling and fairing takes the time... Plus building a hull is in some ways a minor part of building a boat. Its the fitting out and ancillaries that take the time and skill to get 'just right.'

 

[Dockhead]

The liberation of being able to sail, drama-free and 7 or 8 kts, rather than 5, has to be experienced to be appreciated!

Indeed. Fin keels and spade rudders allow you to sail much faster and much closer to the wind than you can with a long keel. They're cheaper to build as well, so it's no wonder that hardly any long keel sailboats have been built in the last couple of decades.

Even Hallberg-Rassys come with spade rudders these days. My boat does not have a spade rudder (she has a partial skeg, which is a compromise), but I would probably be ok with a spade rudder even on a heavy cruising boat.

 

[30boat]

Indeed. Fin keels and spade rudders allow you to sail much faster and much closer to the wind than you can with a long keel. They're cheaper to build as well, so it's no wonder that hardly any long keel sailboats have been built in the last couple of decades.

Even Hallberg-Rassys come with spade rudders these days. My boat does not have a spade rudder (she has a partial skeg, which is a compromise), but I would probably be ok with a spade rudder even on a heavy cruising boat.

Andrew Simpson's Shindig has a partial skeg and is definitely no slouch.

 

[Vara]

Well distilling all the points made on this thread, I think the perfect boat for me would be an Arcona hull, Fisher top, with main and genny furling.

Best of all worlds.

 

[Tranona]

Well distilling all the points made on this thread, I think the perfect boat for me would be an Arcona hull, Fisher top, with main and genny furling.

Best of all worlds.

But what anchor would you choose?

 

[Vara]

But what anchor would you choose?

I'd have a Focna, a fisher mans with a roll bar.

 

[KellysEye]

>Are modern yachts designed wrong?

To me the bottom line answer to the question is no they are not, if they were they wouldn't sell as some manufacturers have proved. There are boats that you can buy for day sailing, coastal and cross channel trips, offshore and ocean sailing. Everyone has the choice subject to what they want from the boat and what they want to use it for, no doubt some choices will be different but there is nothing wrong with that, every one to their own.

As I've mentioned before we bought a heavy displacement long keel with cutaway forefoot steel boat for ocean sailing and on the premise if you sail for long enough something will hit you or you will hit something. We got hit twice and a GRP boat would have been holed in the hull both times. On the other hand we chartered for over 20 years 2 or 3 times a year, in a big range of AWB's of different makes and sizes. They can handle gales and are fun to sail but tippy. If we started coastal sailing I would buy an AWB, in fact we would probably start chartering again it's cheaper than buying a boat for the time we want to spend sailing.

 

[Sandy Bottom]

If you are looking at cedar strip as the base, and especially if you are then looking to cold-mold veneer (are you sure about this?) - then your starting point has to be a design that is sympathetic to this construction method. As this has already been done many many times there really is no point in 're-inventing the wheel'. There are now nine pages of comments on this thread with most of them dealing with the effects of design criteria on sea-going performance / safety and 'Livaboardlyness' (have I just invented a new word for the marine dictionary?). But design has another criteria and that is ease / difficulty of construction. Compound curves will be your nightmare - but there are thousands of designs that allow the use of compound curves that the material will accept - and I respectfully suggest two things; 1. Adopt and modify an existing design that has already proven itself constructed from the materials you wish to use (even down to the type of timber) and 2. Have a good look at American designs and join the US wooden boat forums - they know what they are talking about and are still into timber in a much more educated way than we are in Europe. :encouragement:

Despite what the naysayers might preach, you can get a wooden boat that doesn't leak a drop, they can have reasonably modern hull shapes within the design limits of wood, and timber, if done properly, can be as strong and easily maintained as any other material. I am not against other materials (I've owned boats built from ally, steel, and GRP) and they all have their pro's and cons, but there is an awful lot of nonsense spoken about wood as a construction material when in reality it is the standard of construction that is the problem not the material itself.

If you can be bothered to watch a 40 minute broadcast then an awful lot can be learned by listening to these guys - people like Ted Hood, Olin Stephens, Waldo Howland, and C. Raymond Hunt know what they are talking about when it comes to boat design - listen to what they have to say about what is 'right'. Ray Hunt designed the first ever deep vee hull (he invented it), he also designed the Boston Whaler, and The Concordia Yawls. In his own boat 'Harrier' he won six consecutive races over six days at Cowes Week with a family crew!

The Concordia's are 40' - there were 103 of them built between 1938 and 1966 - 102 of them are still sailing - they fetch between $100,000 and $200,000 today - that's wooden boat building!

See here for the video or just Google 'Concordia Yawls'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjvDJwiNa_4

You sound like you know what you're talking about and personally I think that you are on the right track, but give some serious thought to that veneer :encouragement: Just my 2p.

 

[chal]

Lots of interesting material on this thread. I have a MAB and the whole package works for me, but I harbour no illusions that she does anything at all very much better than a modern boat would do it. Creature comforts are lamentable, but swmbo and I love her all the same.

I've posted something about this elsewhere, but maybe take a look at this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirit_of_Mystery. I have seen the boat and she is absolutely gorgeous, one of the few I'd consider swapping mine for (oops, hope mine doesn't read this!) if I could afford it. Looks great, sails well (I've talked to the owner, he's a professional skipper and knows what he is talking about), has excellent crew accommodation, meets modern safety standards, looks and indeed is traditional, and is more than capable of crossing oceans.

The builder specialises in building traditional craft to local designs. I don't know what the local design to you (OP) might be, but I'm sure there is one. Why not consider building something like the above but along more local lines? This boat was actually built by Chris Rees but he also acts as architect and advisor to self builders. I've definitely posted a link to this one http://grayhoundluggersailing.com/ before which was a self build to plans by Chris: it's huge but shows what can be done. Here's another which is somewhat smaller https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.502461936446531.130605.166866556672739&type=1 which, as I think you can see from the photos, was attractive without and comfortable within, and again more than ocean capable having done several Atlantic crossings.

My point is not that these boats are more capable than a modern boat from Jen/Ben/Bav, they are not. However, if you are building yourself anyway, you can have whatever you like, and that can mean traditional lines combined with seagoing ability combined with good crew accomodation.

 

[Dockhead]

Andrew Simpson's Shindig has a partial skeg and is definitely no slouch.

Did I say my boat is a slouch? Well, she is at the moment, but she won't be after her bottom is cleaned off next week

No, partial skeg can be ok and may be a better choice for cruising boats -- the lowered lower bearing made possible by the partial skeg makes the rudder much stronger than a spade can be, while leaving room for some rudder area ahead of the rudderstock axis for some servo action. That makes the steering more balanced and lighter and reduces autopilot workload, compared to a full skeg rudder. Every design choice is a compromise of some kind or another, and partial skeg rudders are not bad compromises for some people's purposes.

But there's no question that a high aspect spade rudder is more efficient -- that is, more lift, less drag, more performance upwind. When well made, they don't usually fall out . You don't want to hit anything with them, however.

 

[pmagowan]

The Concordia yawls are lovely but for my own use I would not choose a yawl but a bermudan sloop and they do have a little too much of the compromise of the old design which, although it makes them beautiful also makes them more difficult to live with. I also really like the more traditional workboats and they have the benefit of space with a very heavy design but they are certainly not going to get close to modern designs for speed. They have a rugged beauty rather than the sleek beauty of the concordia yawl. I think I want a half way house between the modern and the lines of the old. The rustler style has really started to appeal to me and I am ordering a few books online about design and manufacturing methods.

 

[Sybarite]

The Concordia yawls are lovely but for my own use I would not choose a yawl but a bermudan sloop and they do have a little too much of the compromise of the old design which, although it makes them beautiful also makes them more difficult to live with. I also really like the more traditional workboats and they have the benefit of space with a very heavy design but they are certainly not going to get close to modern designs for speed. They have a rugged beauty rather than the sleek beauty of the concordia yawl. I think I want a half way house between the modern and the lines of the old. The rustler style has really started to appeal to me and I am ordering a few books online about design and manufacturing methods.

If you are seriously considering building your own boat, plan on building three : first one for your enemy, second for a friend and third for yourself; it's an old adage.